Building teardrop structure out of aluminum with Rivets???

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Re: Building teardrop structure out of aluminum with Rivets?

Postby alaska teardrop » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:43 pm

    For those who have recommended that Jonathan use 'aircraft rivets' to attach aluminum sheet to aluminum tubing. I'm curious. The term seems generic since there are several to choose from. Specifically, which one & why? Links to a source that offers universal availability with information such as cost, shear and tensile strength? Thanks
    :peace: Fred
Northern Lite Traveler design: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=51991
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Re: Building teardrop structure out of aluminum with Rivets?

Postby RandyG » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:37 pm

There are many to choose from, and it's hard for me to say what type to use because they are called different things for people. A pull-through is a pop rivet, not for structural use.
A cherry-max, which was discussed above, is just as strong as a solid rivet but is shot with a special gun, which can be expensive. Think of a super pop rivet.
Jo-bolts are another blind fastener and you can shoot them with a drill and a wrench. They are just as strong as a nut and bolt. For the cost of jo-bolts, I would just use them in critical points.
Those are the two I would consider, cherry max are cheaper, jo bolts stronger. Do a search on both, they may come up as a different name.
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Re: Building teardrop structure out of aluminum with Rivets?

Postby alaska teardrop » Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:42 pm

Vedette wrote:Aluminum structure is IMHO the way to go for teardrop trailers.
Rivets are cool to look at and are definitely the way to skin your trailer.
But for the frame and the skeleton, wouldn't it just be easier to learn to weld or find someone that can and has the equipment to come and help? :thinking:
Just my two cents worth.
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Brian & Sandi

    Hi Brian,
    I've given some thought to your question. A trailer welded with aluminum structural shapes like the one in Jonathan's first post is interesting, but I considered it impractical for building a one time only truly lightweight trailer.
    The video is informative to a point.
    Image
    Image
    So, go for it. :thumbsup:
    :peace: Fred
Northern Lite Traveler design: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=51991
Minimalist torsion axle frame: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=12220
Alaska Teardrop photo gallery: http://tnttt.com/gallery/album.php?album_id=2014
Glampette photo gallery; gallery/album.php?album_id=2983&sk=t&sd=d&st=0
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Re: Building teardrop structure out of aluminum with Rivets?

Postby jonnyo » Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:31 pm

i m really considering learning to weld now!!! it would be a very fun project and i really think it would be possible to make a near 1000lbs 6X12 trailer for 4 people....similar in size to the uhaul 6X12 but a little more aerodynamic. Family trailer that is cheap on gas!!!

Livinlite trailer and my rance aluminum trailer have the same construction technic. my 5X8 was 420lbs before i start making modification to it. If i had knew better, i could have done it much litter and less overbuild as it was already strong enough!

ok, rivet...welding.....and i have found 2 place in my town that have aluminum products!!! Time to clean the garage and start a new project!!!


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Re: Building teardrop structure out of aluminum with Rivets?

Postby MeelisV » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:21 am

i made with aluminium structure but welded

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=44096

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Re: Building teardrop structure out of aluminum with Rivets?

Postby Roo Dog » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:05 am

MeelisV,

Nice work !

RD :)
Lets do a three sixty and get out of here !
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Re: Building teardrop structure out of aluminum with Rivets?

Postby alaska teardrop » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:23 pm

    This is a good thread to further the discussion of designing & building with aluminum. :designing:
    Meelis, I followed your build thread from the start and am thoroughly impressed with your plan & execution. I wish there was more discussion on constructing with aluminum.
    Having some past experience with welding aluminum, I can say that your welder must have experience, talent, patience & precise welding equipment to weld all four sides of tubing that is that thin (2mm). Note that in the Livin'/Camp Lite video (min. 2:35) that they do not.
    Can you tell us the thickness of your exterior aluminum?
    :peace: Fred
Northern Lite Traveler design: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=51991
Minimalist torsion axle frame: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=12220
Alaska Teardrop photo gallery: http://tnttt.com/gallery/album.php?album_id=2014
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Re: Building teardrop structure out of aluminum with Rivets?

Postby jonnyo » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:29 pm

wow, MeelisV

that was a very interesting build thread. You guys are amazing resources!!!!
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Re: Building teardrop structure out of aluminum with Rivets?

Postby jonnyo » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:58 pm

alaska teardrop wrote:
    This is a good thread to further the discussion of designing & building with aluminum. :designing:
    Meelis, I followed your build thread from the start and am thoroughly impressed with your plan & execution. I wish there was more discussion on constructing with aluminum.
    Having some past experience with welding aluminum, I can say that your welder must have experience, talent, patience & precise welding equipment to weld all four sides of tubing that is that thin (2mm). Note that in the Livin'/Camp Lite video (min. 2:35) that they do not.
    Can you tell us the thickness of your exterior aluminum?
    :peace: Fred



On my rance aluminum trailer, only 2 side of the square tubing is welded at most places...only a few have all side welded? why? is it that in most cases, 2 weld is plenty strong? saving money?
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Re: Building teardrop structure out of aluminum with Rivets?

Postby JohnSw » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:43 pm

In the world of big trailers.. I used to own a 5th wheel.. there are 3 basic types of wall framing. There is wood (not so much anymore) and 2 types of aluminum frames. One is welded aluminum tubing the other is aluminum tubing that is glued and screwed.

The glued and screwed construction uses aluminum tubing with aluminum angle pieces at the joints. These angle pieces are held in place with glue (probably epoxy) and a screw through each leg. Sunnybrook and Cedar Creek are two manufacturers that uses this method of construction. I looked for a picture to illustrate but didn't see a good one in their literature.

At the time, the idea of a steel screw holding aluminum parts together did not appeal to me due to the potential for galvanic corrosion so I bought a Cardinal with a welded aluminum wall construction. After owning it for a number of years, reading forums and talking to other owners, I decided that it really didn't matter what type of wall construction a unit had. They were all cheap but they also all went down the road without the walls falling apart.

You already possess the skill and tools to build a glued and screwed frame....

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Re: Building teardrop structure out of aluminum with Rivets?

Postby alaska teardrop » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:05 pm

jonnyo wrote:

On my rance aluminum trailer, only 2 side of the square tubing is welded at most places...only a few have all side welded? why? is it that in most cases, 2 weld is plenty strong? saving money?

    Jonnyo,
    I think that welding all four sides would be stronger if it's done correctly. And that's the rub. To get a good weld on .063" or 2mm aluminum takes talent, more time and then the outside welds need to be ground flush so that the outside skin will lay flat. So yes, fewer welds and no grinding would be cheaper & faster.
    There are really two totally different methods being discussed here so far. Because Meelis has a stout skeleton, he can glue the skin on and rivet only around the perimeter of the walls. The skin is probably thinner, but once the blueboard is fitted, I'm sure that it's plenty rigid.
    Image
    Image
    The Northern Lite has a .063" (1/16) skin to which the tubes are attached in order to make a rigid wall. Note the placement of rivets. At every junction of tubing, the skin is an intrinsic component of the joint. Again, the fitted blueboard is not just for insulation, but contributes to strength.
    Image
    The curved front & roof skins on both trailers also work to keep the cabin squared up and rigid.
    The two trailers that you posted pictures of have massive aluminum chassis to make up for the potential of stress fatigue. IMO, you could build a lighter weight and far less expensive chassis for your 1000# trailer using welded steel that would live up to these tongue strength guidelines: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=56880
    :peace: Fred
Northern Lite Traveler design: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=51991
Minimalist torsion axle frame: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=12220
Alaska Teardrop photo gallery: http://tnttt.com/gallery/album.php?album_id=2014
Glampette photo gallery; gallery/album.php?album_id=2983&sk=t&sd=d&st=0
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Re: Building teardrop structure out of aluminum with Rivets?

Postby RandyG » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:58 pm

The skin on the bottom of my frame made it very rigid, so skin adds alot of strength to any structure. A steel frame would be easier, less engineering and cheaper because you would use less material to make it strong enough. But it would still be heavier. The weight in the walls and roof could make it top heavy. Then how would you attach aluminum skin to the steel skeleton?
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Re: Building teardrop structure out of aluminum with Rivets?

Postby Bogo » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:29 pm

JohnSw wrote:The glued and screwed construction uses aluminum tubing with aluminum angle pieces at the joints. These angle pieces are held in place with glue (probably epoxy) and a screw through each leg. Sunnybrook and Cedar Creek are two manufacturers that uses this method of construction. I looked for a picture to illustrate but didn't see a good one in their literature.

If I was going to use an aluminum frame, I'd use fittings, glue, and rivets to hold it together. The rivets are temporary backups for the glue if it fails. BTW, Lotus is using that construction method on some of their cars. The advantage is you can use the higher strength aluminums, and not loose strength due to welding. 40k to 60k PSI strength aluminums often become 20k PSI at the weld joint. They then need to be heat treated and solution aged to regain most of their original strength. Due to uncontrollable changes during welding, not all of the original strength can be recovered. With a properly designed glue joint it will retain the original strength through the joint. Weight savings over steel can be from 30% to 50% depending on the aluminum alloy used. It does require going to larger diameter tubes and taller I-bean sections to get the maximum weight savings. This is mainly due to aluminum being less able to handle constant flexing.

My understanding from a race car trailer manufacturer is VHB taped joints are strong enough to allow the skin to be a stressed skin. The secret is in making them wide enough. That way there is enough bond area that the shear strength of the VHB tape is high enough. Auto body glues will also work. For the side walls they were using 40mm square tubes with one piece, pre painted, 3mm thick aluminum, plastic, aluminum sandwich panel skins. They just used fittings with rivets at the tube to tube joints. They relied on the skins to limit flex at the joints. One of the secrets to a good glue or VHB tape joint is cleanliness. Properly clean and treat the joint just before applying the glue or tape. Don't touch the joint area with your fingers after cleaning it.

VHB tape will isolate steel from aluminum if it isn't riveted.
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Re: Building teardrop structure out of aluminum with Rivets?

Postby MeelisV » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:07 am

alaska teardrop wrote:
    This is a good thread to further the discussion of designing & building with aluminum. :designing:
    Meelis, I followed your build thread from the start and am thoroughly impressed with your plan & execution. I wish there was more discussion on constructing with aluminum.
    Having some past experience with welding aluminum, I can say that your welder must have experience, talent, patience & precise welding equipment to weld all four sides of tubing that is that thin (2mm). Note that in the Livin'/Camp Lite video (min. 2:35) that they do not.
    Can you tell us the thickness of your exterior aluminum?
    :peace: Fred


tubing is 20x20x2 mm (0,79 " x0,79 " x0,079 ")
and "skin" is 1mm (0.039 ") anodized aluminium

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Re: Building teardrop structure out of aluminum with Rivets?

Postby jonesnforcampin » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:28 pm

RandyG wrote:There are many to choose from, and it's hard for me to say what type to use because they are called different things for people. A pull-through is a pop rivet, not for structural use.
A cherry-max, which was discussed above, is just as strong as a solid rivet but is shot with a special gun, which can be expensive. Think of a super pop rivet.
Jo-bolts are another blind fastener and you can shoot them with a drill and a wrench. They are just as strong as a nut and bolt. For the cost of jo-bolts, I would just use them in critical points.
Those are the two I would consider, cherry max are cheaper, jo bolts stronger. Do a search on both, they may come up as a different name.


Ok, I must have some weak Google-fu because I am having a tough time finding the Jo-Bolts. Is there a different name that I am not finding?

Also, does anyone have the product name or number for that tape that was referred to that is used to tape AL to AL?
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