Initial figgerin' Jagged Edges #1

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Re: Initial figgerin' Jagged Edges #1

Postby tony.latham » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:59 pm

JaggedEdges wrote:I think I'd have a concern about damp in the mattress if the mattress was the insulation.


We don't get condensation in our mattress.

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Re: Initial figgerin' Jagged Edges #1

Postby Socal Tom » Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:31 am

for my 2 cents, I recommend you don't get too inventive, and be cautious about using stuff from your junk pile. If this is to be trailer #1, then most likely you will want to sell it to help finance trailer #2. If you end up with some odd ball setup, it will be harder to sell.
Living in Ontario, being weather tight is probably an important consideration, so I suggest that when it comes to things like the galley hinge and doors you may want to stick with a solution that is known to work, and plan what you are going to do in the beginning.Put thought into your door sealing and galley sealing methods. These shouldn't be an afterthought. From what I've been able to tell from posts over the last several years, sealing with T-moulding on the exterior has to be done just right, or it leaks. Sealing inside with a "flange" seems to be the fall back position several have used when the T-moulding didn't do the job for them, so its probably been a bit more reliable. Of course the highest probability of success comes from the commercial doors.
For the galley, the Frederick's method probably doesn't work if you don't use the plywood sides. So you either have the "conventional" method described in the generic benroy plans, or do a method like pictured above by Chuckles where the galley hatch is narrower than the trailer.

It makes sense in your neck of the woods to insulate the sides. There have been many that have successfully pulled that off, so learn from their successes.
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Re: Initial figgerin' Jagged Edges #1

Postby JaggedEdges » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:01 pm

TBH what I think will likely happen to it after a few years is a particular relative with talk me into a "loan" and "destroy" it going across country. She'd manage this if it was built from stainless steel welded to spacecraft tolerances and specs i.e. the whole thing basically a solid piece of metal, if it wasn't forgetting to set the parking brake over a 2000ft canyon it'd be camping on a military reservation and getting run over by a tank, or maybe "I thought it would be okay cooking inside if I used smokeless charcoal".
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Re: Initial figgerin' Jagged Edges #1

Postby JaggedEdges » Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:09 pm

Well 2015 went to hell, as far as having time to do anything at all went, but it's April again, the snow has gone and I've got the itch.

More pondering has happened, and looking over various designs and projects, I think I want to go for the "stressed skin" kind of construction. Whereby the ply skins being firmly bonded to frame and foam sandwich impart rigidity and strength. Also looking at the "cloth and paint" type of coating. Wondering if I should skin with 1/8 if I'm doing that. I would prefer to stick with 1/4 inside, since I'm thinking I might put an elbow through 1/8 when it will only be varnished. Left me wondering about vapor barrier though, since it would get in the way of skin to frame bonding if I'm considering that a structural unit. Guess you just have to make sure your seal is damn good with the outer skin and make that do the job.

I didn't get any richer, and have had a few "finds" of cheapskate products. Recycled exterior paint is available to me at $20 a gallon, any color you like as long as it's grey. So I figure I can make that do the donkey work, and shoot or roller some color on top. Also found a neat tip for small safety glass windows, is to get shed or playhouse windows, which are also economical.

Researching the local sources of "Baltic birch" in 5x5s to see if they can be confirmed to have exterior quality glue. Thinking I may want those for floor and also rear kitchen and cabinetry. Not sure if the price will suit yet.

Current thinking on hatch seal is to have the hatch frame members 1/4 inch lower than the skins, then treating that all around as exterior and wrapping the coating into it, then finish with a rubber on the inside edge. So there will be a u channel all way round hatch. Should cut hatch ribs and rear frame at same time to be sure of super close match.

Anyway, here's hoping I make some kind of progress this year, at least get that old popup fully dismantled and the frame prepped.
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Re: Initial figgerin' Jagged Edges #1

Postby jstrubberg » Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:28 pm

Jagged;

If you have one nearby, check out Menards for your plywood. I was over there recently and they had 1/4" birch ply, five ply, marine grade glue for less than 30 bucks a sheet. Much, MUCH more water resistant than luaun and very attractive stuff.
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Re: Initial figgerin' Jagged Edges #1

Postby pchast » Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:21 pm

I'd like to suggest that you do a couple of test panels With scraps of the products
you are considering. I think you will find that you do not need the thickness of
plywood you are talking about.
:thinking:

Ask at the local lumber yard and you should find samples sizes of products available.
This whether from damaged goods or cut-offs.
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Re: Initial figgerin' Jagged Edges #1

Postby JaggedEdges » Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:44 am

jstrubberg wrote:Jagged;

If you have one nearby, check out Menards for your plywood. I was over there recently and they had 1/4" birch ply, five ply, marine grade glue for less than 30 bucks a sheet. Much, MUCH more water resistant than luaun and very attractive stuff.

Sounds like nice stuff, but no Menards in Canada here. I know some luaun can be really nasty, but the stuff I'm looking at has exterior glue and is recommended for basement use as underlayment. So thinking it should be a little rot resistant for that application. In comparison most of the other local 1/4 sounds useless, composed core, non-structural in big letters, C-D grade, I dunno what you would use the stuff for, sounds like total crap for anything. Probably in a year or two they'll all be like "Yeah we discontinued 1/4 ply there was no call for it" yah, because you stocked crap. There's some specialist lumber places in an hours drive or so, but they haven't figured out that websites can be used to tell people exactly what you sell, don't wanna waste the gas and end up disappointed.
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Re: Initial figgerin' Jagged Edges #1

Postby JaggedEdges » Sat Apr 23, 2016 6:19 pm

Heh still looping round in circles, start at the Benroy, doesn't have enough kitchen, get the "2 foot-itis" start looking at the 2+2s and standies, then realise those are large, take a lot of materials, require non-junk trailer parts, and the build will probably bog down, (I've got this strange idea I could burn through a basic one in a month.) then I go back to the Benroy again... keep forgetting also that while my van can shift a ton+, the hatchback can't, and I want to be able to pull this with the hatchback sometime down the road.

There's something messed about that Benroy, says it's an 80 inch bed, 96" total length, but there's only 9" depth in the cupboard. I can't find where the inches are lost. Also it has a problem where there's only 1ft over the toe space, even with a skinny 3" mattress that's no good. Might have to print those out and fully dimension everything myself to find out what's going on. Think I wanna just take the profile, do a 76" total interior cabin length, put enough depth in the kitchen to hold a cooler...

Kitchen, yah that's important... I wanna do short opportunist camping trips so I don't wanna have to unpack everything and set up my kitchen outside the trailer, that's what I do with tents and due to setup and lugging everything around makes me not wanna camp anything less than a 3 day weekend. So want everything in the kitchen, ready to go and ready to use. Some campers say they like going through all their gear in the week preceding a weekend trip and getting everything ready, not me really, wanna grab and go. Also better for "touring" as it were when you wanna go far afield and overnight on the way.

Anyway, back to squinting at plans and designs trying to find decent kitchen and cabinet layouts in an 8ft coach.... though if I built a light 10ft... stoppit.
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Re: Initial figgerin' Jagged Edges #1

Postby JaggedEdges » Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:21 pm

Turned up a source for Baltic Birch, that's a 2 hour trip away. $15 for a 5x5 1/4, $25 for 5x5 5/8 .. so tempted to look at tall 10 footers now...

Local Home Depot is irritating, had a poke around, their stock isn't terribly well marked, and lacks detail on the labeling you get on the website, but if you can find it in the store, it doesn't seem to be on the website, and if it's on the site it doesn't seem to be in the store. They only had large size shed windows and those weren't marked as having safety glass, so not a lot there I can use I think. Was looking for their economy styrofoam utility panels, don't seem to have them. $6 for a 2x8, otherwise it seemed like the foam was gonna cost more than all the wood put together... oh well they're not the only game in town, just happened to be near there.

Also found a single sheet of marine 4x10x 1/8 for sale off a local, not sure whether to have that for the front end roof, since that will get all the weather on tow, but kinda want all the same thing on the same side at least. Be annoying if it makes a step due to half a mm thinner than whatever else I get or something, yeah, I can feather.

At the moment "stock" hanging round is 2of 4x8 x1/4 spruce exterior ply, half a dozen bits of 2x4 I can rip from and misc other odd sticks and small pieces of ply that would make gussets and braces if required. Plus possibly reclaimable at least 5x4 out of 2 old popup bed platforms. So could potentially get floor and two walls framed up before I have to go buy anything.
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Re: Initial figgerin' Jagged Edges #1

Postby JaggedEdges » Sun May 01, 2016 9:16 am

Buggered if I can settle on any one design I can find. Now I'm liking the layout of the Rimple, but not the shape. I think I'm going to end up printing out a load of them to the same scale, then frankensteining them all together, by tracing bits I like. I need to learn sketchup or something, though despite using a mouse for 25 years I still can't draw worth crap with one.

Added to the stash, picked up a bar sink at a yard sale, not sure if it's not a tad deep though. Does anyone bother with a P-trap/U-bend when you're most likely going to run it to an open/mobile container? I can see the point in an enclosed camper when you have a larger tank that you're not going to empty daily.

Also grabbed some plastic containers, I guess you could call them trays but they're deeper. About 16" x 12" by nearly 5" deep, a buck for 4 of them, sturdy enough. Those will be simple to rack for drawers. But would seem to demand a door over them. Thinking of an up and over, so it's not flapping around to hit your shins, or drop in with the cutting board on the back, with bracket to mount. I was actually intending to do something like this to save me work on drawers, spent half an hour gawping at similar containers in a store that were gonna cost around $5 each, but got into the thinking too much about which one would be perfect, though needed to be more firmly committed to kitchen dimensions to actually choose. Anyway, grabbing these for cheap has probably saved me $20 and a few hours overthinking and I'll just work with what I've got.

Another find was a small coleman thermoelectric cooler, 16 quart version, which will be much easier to fit into tighter 8ft long kitchens. The big old Koolatron was going to have to fit sideways I think. I think even if I have to use a second small icepack cooler also for less critical stuff it will work fine.

For potential purchase I spotted a neat hand pump for water jugs at Walmart. Also turned up some 1" screws at 1.25 per hundred that seem to be hot dipped galvanised. Lot of the "zinc coated" or "galvanised" big store screws seem to have thin spray coatings, be more like $5 for 50, or $10 for 50 for guaranteed hot dip. These ones are at a dollar store, they look hot dipped, but only say "screws, zinc" or something on package... by eyeball they look better protected than the sprayed or plated screws.... Should do what I did to some "nickel plated" I got a while back and shake them up in a bottle of salty water.... those buggers rusted as quick as plain.
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Re: Initial figgerin' Jagged Edges #1

Postby JaggedEdges » Wed May 04, 2016 9:13 am

Aerodynamics....

So, got into serious thought about aero, the classic TD profiles are more eyeball aerodynamic than actually aerodynamic, oh they're better than a square box, but not really efficient. Like I said, sometime in the further future, like 5 years from now, I might want the compact hatchback towing this, and it needs all the help it can get.

This is very helpful...
http://www.grandmarq.net/blaze/Blaze_Pi ... 0Autos.pdf

Now then what seems applicable in there is backlight angle at least to try and get rear profile right. Note also mention of boat tailing and radiused edges on the front for a bluff front. Seems somewhat unpossible to get front point of stagnation right, since most of the airflow is "delivered" off the roof and sides of the tow vehicle. I figure a good half of the front will be in the tow vehicle "dead water" so no need to go super pointy. Curved roof seems worth taking note of also.

So now I'm braining how to work such details into construction without costing myself too much time, effort, or money...

Think I could pinch the kitchen in 3" either side, pull the sides in a tad. Concern there is structural, do it building a plywood boat and you kinda don't mind the gunwhale splaying out a bit. So it seems to mean leaving the sides flopping at the back, until you've tied them at the top of main cabin with roof member structure. Then you can pull it in. Though, since there is not usually any structure across the middle of the tailgate opening, this leaves a concern about the sides splaying there, not remaining upright. Sure the countertop and cabinet framing provides some I guess. So maybe can do a slight boat tail.

"Backlight angle" seems like I could do a 1ft drop in 4ft for about 15 degrees or 1ft in 3ft for about 20 degrees. I think the 1ft in 3ft is going to win, keep more cabinet.

Front edge radiussing... I think I could rabbet the sides into a couple of light pine 4x4s, then radius those off... by the time it's all shaped, it's only like having 3ft of 2x4 there.... bonus is that it gains 2" in interior length over 8ft panel. The other bonus is you get a lot of knockproofing on those front corners. Difficulty is blending in the front roof curve, but I think I'll manage. Secondary worry about R value of wood vs the 1" insulation. Not sure if I'll use A/C in there but get weird temp inversions and humidity variations here, don't want to go creating wet spots. I am thinking there's not such a huge variance, plus if I'm worried about that, why amn't I worried about the walls where the sticks are between the styro? derp.

Roof curve.... well there's the front radius of about 2ft, but the roof roof was going to remain flattish.... however, the strongest structure is an arch, and flat roofs = standing water, so there's those other points for it. But cutting back my sides more and I may as well have built a 3 foot high, urgh. Solution? ... maybe use a 1 1/2 nominal plank, think that's 1.25 actual, again, rabbet the ply sides into it so it's flush and have x inches on top of the ply sides, may gain 3" headroom under the middle of the trailer, that sounds good, it's probably 2" more height in the interior cabs too, that would have been lost to the backlight cut. Not sure how high, is 4" enough? is 6" to much?... again, this sounds a bit weighty, half of it is gonna end up cut off, and 1x1 of it replaces the top side frame, so extra weight for both sides is of the order of an extra 2x4 in there somewhere.

I don't think I should worry about ply subskin to light pine transisition in "surface", since I am pretty much decided on some variety of PMF skin, and provided it's all level, should cover all the same and be protected.

Wheels???? They are buggers for drag, the well is an airscoop and the top of the tire is travelling 2x as fast as the rest of the surface making all sorts of vortices.... But, still lollygagging about my axle setup... on the popup frame the tiny wheels are inset a good 6" and I am not sure if they actually need wheel wells there, can't recall at the moment from last time I looked, and it might be just perched on top.... however, anything taller than a popup and those wheels look very silly... plus they need new tires all round. I have larger rims that should fit those hubs that I will probably want to use. I have to figure out whether the wheels will end up tucked in, tucked under or hanging out. Ultimately they will either get spats or arch covers or something, to expose only the bottom half of the wheel. This isn't as bad as you think for tire changing. If it sits at half the wheel when loaded, with a hub circle relief for bolt access, then by the time you jack it up, the axle drops such that the coverage is only to the edge of the rim, some tire still hidden, then when you loosen and pull the bottom of the tire out, you should have enough clearance to pull the wheel out, provided there's about 4" running clearance, or depth in well behind. Might have to design that in if you're doing it yourself... most cars though you could blank off most of the rear well and still change tire. However, mudguards that are spats could be a lot of fiddle, and it may get "rat rod" fenders initially... in the original definition of rat-rod, where you grab anything you can find and make it work, not the current poser definition, of spend weeks looking on ebay for some vintage thing to destroy by using as a car part just because it looks cooler than what's actually lying around in your garage. Then maybe later it will get "properly" formed fenders. I am pondering something like shaped out of hardware cloth on temporary wooden frame and covered with PMF on top, then take support out when dry and do inside too.

Oh btw, this fancy talk of rabetting etc, can do, have router, but these probably simple enough to do with a table saw... and I got one of those too.
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Re: Initial figgerin' Jagged Edges #1

Postby JaggedEdges » Sat May 14, 2016 4:11 pm

Busy week, been trying to find a quiet hour or two to really work on large scale, scale drawings, too much fudge factor in small sketches.

Picked up 6 "shelves" for $5 today, shelves are latex daubed 1x8 x10' pine, so $90 lumber for $5. Not sure where that fits in yet. If I rip one into 1x2s I've made the money back, but seems shame to rip wide boards. Possibly some will become part of the kitchen and interior shelving, though a tad thicker than what's needed. They may get used on the house, they might end up a boat seat or two, one might become a transom, the might end up duckboards in my air raid trench when China declares war on us... I was just like "For $5 I want those decorating my garage!" .... trying not to let the missus see them so I don't have to use them for shelves LOL
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Re: Initial figgerin' Jagged Edges #1

Postby JaggedEdges » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:56 pm

2017 now, Third time lucky! Yah, spring/summer 2016 I got screwed over just as bad as 2015... no building, no camping.

2017 gonna be different, well first off Docs figured out what's wrong with me so I won't be so wiped out from the "extra crap" I've been hit with last couple of years, full cure isn't in until end of the year with surgery, but I gots all the bandaids sorted. Basically every hour of free time that got stolen cost me 3 more in being exhausted from it. So the bandaids should be taming that a bit, and the free time stealing is theoretically averted now. Also my wife doesn't have to blow her vacation days on family stuff this year. And a motivator and thing to look forward to is that there's a large property by the lake, that I've got hooked up for free camping/free run of this year, though it will be off grid and haul your own water etc... and another lack of complication, is the course my wife has to take over summer this year is all bookwork out of actual books... most of them lately have expected her to be online multiple times a day to participate in group discussion or complete stuff online, HIGHLY irritating when you wanna be away from it all, (Yeah, I am hip with the 21st century enough to know about data plans, but coverage still highly spotty away from the big cities, major highways)

Enough of that, suffice it to say, more highly motivated and energised.

So, at the moment in process of acquiring a 5x8 flatbed for dirt cheap, supposed to have recent tires, and the sort of price that makes me go "Now why would I buy tires for that popup frame I have to strip down to get to still???" Also real leafs, the popup has some goofy trailing arm coils that don't have any natural damping like leaf friction, so it was possibly going to need a set of leaf springs and tires. Though process is kinda stalled, agreed to buy then the guy has been incommunicado all weekend. Don't really have fuller details only a crappy pic, looks like it's at least a 1500lb deally, At least if it does end up falling through it got my excitement fired up again.

re re re re sketched plans. Really determined to get TARDIS level space utilisation in an 8ft 'drop. Though it's looking less droppy. was getting to be a profile similar to the weekender, but then reread my aero stuff above did a doh, then raised roofline 3" at center to curve the roof. Think I'm going to have to mock up the kitchen in cardboard boxes.

Started to think I'm going to go single door... though I might structure the other side such that if it bugs me enough I can cut a door out there also. Reason being is I have one window, that used vertically and with a minimal frame around, could be a door, and another different sized window, that can't fit elsewhere on an 8ft, so will have that window the other side. Yah it's not symmetrical, but I have them and it makes it 20 hours and $400 closer being built to do it like that. Also decided to skip roof vent... going to go with a short, wide window in the flat front panel overhead, and use 120mm equipment fans to vent out of it. Will have shutter that will be able to be pushed right back so we can see stars as we sleep or sit over as rain/sun awning or close fully for towing.

Sources of 3/4 styrofoam keep teasing me with fleeting availability.... there then gone... it's a reclamation deally. Though I cottoned to another source of waste foam, but haven't gained permission to take yet. Remember the phrase penny pinching deathmatch, I was serious, I'm not going to buy a thing I can't scrounge, grab at a yard sale, repurpose.... If I get that trailer, I've pretty much set myself a target of $500, yeah really. Git'r'done might come up against patient material hunting though. First thing I do with that trailer though is go round and pick up a bunch of skids, those, plus the 1x8s I grabbed for $5, and 4 2x4s should be all the lumber I need, plus odds and ends from "stock". 8 sheets of 1/8 "underlayment" luaun at $10 a pop, some waterproof modified PVA type glue, gallon jug, $30 ... Recycled outdoor latex at $15 a gallon... old bedsheets...


LOL funny how your brain pops onto "next" project though in the middle of one. Efficiency of materials thoughts led to "Wonder how cheap you can do a 4 bed standy."... sketched out something that looks like it would take 2 1/2 sheets per panel side, whole sheet dimensions on most of roof, then uses offcuts for the bed boxes.... Though funny thing is, put in same design params and somehow turns into 1.75 scale version of the drop, similar shape.
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Re: Initial figgerin' Jagged Edges #1

Postby booyah » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:52 am

Check my build, its not too far from what you are describing
3/8" outside walls for strenth and sheeting /lightweight
1/4" luan plywood inside
1x2 in the middle with 3/4" R5 foamboard

I didnt build mine to support a boat uptop, but I kicked the idea around a lot. build thread is in the sig, ended up loaded for war at 860lbs, and for the last two years I pulled with a Scion XD 5 speed manual.
My build, 5x8 modified benroy "Smiles to go". Started April 2nd 2015, first trip August 2nd 2015.

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Re: Initial figgerin' Jagged Edges #1

Postby JaggedEdges » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:45 am

I think the strength thing is taken care of, with the mention previous that I should be tapping the compression strength of the sidewalls with hardpoints mounted to those, rather than looking for beam strength in the middle of the roof. Nice build, yah, kinda close, looking to get a bit more out of the galley though.

... ... ... ... ...

So yah, that trailer fell through, as far as I thought, I just had to arrange a time to pick it up and pay. Daft bugger listed a bunch more stuff which I would have been interested in a lot of too, so frack you Budday, hope you get stuck with it, not gonna mess around.

Winter came back again and dumped on me, kinda chilled things, melting off again now.

Been obsessively prowling classifieds looking for a cheap/reasonable frame again. Gone completely off using the popup one I've got, like I mentioned springs are terrible.... though I could screw poly boat bumpers into it, make it rubber suspension. Eejuts keep listing 4 foot wide trailers as bigger, because they've gone round/over the wheels with decking. At this rate I could end up buying one of the heavy duty folding trailers I'm seeing advertised.

Also now found doors "cheap" $200 Canadian and I can pick them up localish for half a tank of gas. Sorry, keeping quiet about where for now, limited quantities.
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