Firearms

[Westy]

One gent wanted a split thread to avoid taking the OP off topic.

Will this help?

My original comment in the old thread :- I have been following this conversation with some interest.

Being Australian and possessing an attitude and opinion, almost totally at odds with a lot of the preceding comments, I cannot but wonder why Americans have this almost reverence like attitude towards firearms.

It seems to me that there is more of a desire to carry firearms because every other person does rather than a need for protection (though I am not sure what you are protecting against).

I have owned firearms as a professional shooter (kangaroos and other game for pet meat) but only ever used them in the execution (possibly not the best choice of words) of my work. I was young at the time and on the birth of my eldest, surrendered the firearms and my licenses as I do not believe that firearms should be in the same space as children.

It really mystifies me why some people believe that, in the pursuit of a leisure pastime, one needs to be armed.

I mean this as no criticism of the individual posters but more of a collective comment.

Westy

[MtnDon]

Nothing to say right now; just wanted to set the future replies "notification" thingy to make it easier to follow this.

[DrCrash]

This post will go south fast.

If you are not an American you cant understand the want or need to 2A.

[mcubberley]

.

[MtnDon]

Some Americans don't understand the want or perceived need

[GTS225]

I have been following this conversation with some interest.

Being Australian and possessing an attitude and opinion, almost totally at odds with a lot of the preceding comments, I cannot but wonder why Americans have this almost reverence like attitude towards firearms.

*********************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Totally understandable. You have grown up in a different country, with different historical and political background.
I think the "reverence like attitude", as you put it, stems to major events that shaped our history, and associated independence from England. Our history books have repeatedly told us that the king's army was sent here, after our Declaration of Independence was drafted and delivered, to confiscate all weapons from the populace of the colonies. Now, those "weapons" were essential tools needed in order to just survive in a new world, and the loss of them would have meant almost certain death, or at the very least, complete dependence on the king and his "graces". Those colonists, made up of blacksmiths, candle makers, bakers, and just plain farmers, responded with force, and over the course of the next seven years, made their Declaration stick, by driving out what at the time, was the world's finest and most organized military force known. Had it not been for firearms, I'm quite certain the outcome would have been quite different.
I'm sorry to say, I know little of Australia"s history, other than knowing it got it's start as a penal colony for England. I do not know how your country finally obtained independence from the UK, but perhaps you can understand the love of firearms, and having them available on a personal basis, through knowing your own history.

It seems to me that there is more of a desire to carry firearms because every other person does rather than a need for protection (though I am not sure what you are protecting against).

***************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
We are protecting against other humans. The humans that can't seem to follow certain rules that are laid down by society in general, and plain decency in particular. I'm not a devout man, but the bible passage "Do unto others, as you would have others do unto you" is quite appropriate to apply to the mentality. We carry so that we are certain to be able to stop negative actions being carried out by our fellow humans that think they can do as the please, no matter who might get hurt, as long as they get what they want.

I have owned firearms as a professional shooter (kangaroos and other game for pet meat) but only ever used them in the execution (possibly not the best choice of words) of my work. I was young at the time and on the birth of my eldest, surrendered the firearms and my licenses as I do not believe that firearms should be in the same space as children.

**************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

And you have the right to do as you see fit with you and yours. I, however, follow a different educational process. I do take great care in securing my weapons against little hands getting control of them, and when I feel they are old, or mature enough, I introduce them to a firearm. I'll hand it to them, after making doubly certain it's not loaded, let them look it over, and when they voluntarily hand it back, inform them they are to never touch it again without asking, and I have to be present. In this way, they get their initial curiosity satisfied, and when the time is right, I'll take them to a range, and teach them the hard rules of firearms handling, along with what destructive damage guns can do. Many firearms enthusiasts do something quite similar, and most of us view it as "gun-proofing the child, not child-proofing the gun".

It really mystifies me why some people believe that, in the pursuit of a leisure pastime, one needs to be armed.

Well, perhaps my word will take some of the mystery out of it for you.

I mean this as no criticism of the individual posters but more of a collective comment.
Westy

********************************************************************************************************************************************

None taken. I try to educate when I can, rather than irritate folks.

Roger

[PaulC]

I would like to point out that Westy, as are a lot of Australians, is somewhat mystified as to your gun laws. Not all of us have read your Bill of rights. Please be gentle with your responses, we mean no harm.

Cheers
Paul

[djohnsonnv]

One thing that gets lost in the "reverance for guns" characterization of Americans is that only about 30% of Americans own guns. I think the "reverance" comes from the 2nd amendment, a politically powerful pro gun lobby and far too many massive gun tragedies.

I believe most Americans wrestle with how to address the issues that come with gun ownership but the national conversation becomes very polorizing. This is a part of our national identity that is tough for many to fully understand when we really reflect deeply on it.

For perapective, I own a gun for recreation. I also have had friends that were at Route 91 last October and I can see the Mandalay Bay Hotel from my home.

[GTS225]

I would like to point out that Westy, as are a lot of Australians, is somewhat mystified as to your gun laws. Not all of us have read your Bill of rights. Please be gentle with your responses, we mean no harm.
Cheers
Paul

******************************************************************************************************************************************

And that's a fair observation. You and Westy did not grow up in this country, so you wouldn't have the same educational background, nor familiarity with the American culture. Just as we Americans are terribly ignorant of your culture and laws. It is a byproduct of where we happened to be born, and no one is at fault for either case.
Nor would it be fair for us to expect you to get familiar with our culture. You are a citizen of Australia, and you should have been taught about your country's laws and culture, just as we were taught about ours.

I will venture to say this, though. There is an underlying primal human "thrill", if you will, to like and enjoy things that make loud noises and cause destruction. It's the millions of years of evolution that enable us to keep that thrill tightly controlled, at least in most civil settings. We allow that "urge" to come out when the time and conditions are more safe and proper.

Roger

[GTS225]

For perspective, I own a gun for recreation. I also have had friends that were at Route 91 last October and I can see the Mandalay Bay Hotel from my home.

**************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Here's a specific, isolated example of why Americans so "love" our firearms. This deranged biped apparently couldn't follow society's rules, and opened fire on a crowded outdoor musical concert from a hotel window. He managed to kill 58 people, and injure 400 by gunfire alone, in the span of ten minutes. (Personally, I remain skeptical about the 1,100 rounds and short time span, but I wasn't there.)
(You can read about it here; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting )

There are many more examples throughout history, and a fair percentage of them carried out by not-so-benevolent governments, that have laid to rest more lives than have been lost in both world wars.

Roger

[Westy]

There are a few statements here that need some clarification.

If you are not an American you cant understand the want or need to 2A.

Amendment 2A states "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.".
In the current gun climate that exists in parts of the USA, i see no evidence of a "well regulated militia". I see a disparate bunch of people pushing the 2nd Amendment to serve their own purposes. Where is the "well regulated militia"? Where are their HQ's? Do they have a policy or plan, if required? What is their leadership structure?

I see little evidence of compliance with the 2nd Amendment but I do see widespead abuse of it's intent.

Our history books have repeatedly told us that the king's army was sent here, after our Declaration of Independence was drafted and delivered, to confiscate all weapons from the populace of the colonies. Now, those "weapons" were essential tools needed in order to just survive in a new world, and the loss of them would have meant almost certain death, or at the very least, complete dependence on the king and his "graces". Those colonists, made up of blacksmiths, candle makers, bakers, and just plain farmers, responded with force, and over the course of the next seven years, made their Declaration stick, by driving out what at the time, was the world's finest and most organized military force known. Had it not been for firearms, I'm quite certain the outcome would have been quite different.

Perhaps your history books need to be revised.
The American Revolutionary War, also known as the American War of Independence was triggered by the British levying taxes on the colonists that were considered to be unfair. The colonists rebelled and the British backtracked by cancelling all taxes other than the one on tea. This lead to the Boston Tea Party and the dispute escalated from that.

There were attempts by the British to disarm some of the local militias but the primary issue was taxation.

"Do unto others, as you would have others do unto you" is quite appropriate to apply to the mentality

This is a poor attempt to circumvent the rule of law. If all Americans were to follow this edict, total anarchy would prevail..

With that said I tend to let people do their own things unless they are showing off their arsenal at the next site over. Open beer cans and weapons being handed around willy nilly tend to add a different tone to my camping experience.

This may well be one of the most erudite statements I have seen. The "open beer cans/weapons" comment is a situation that happens everywhere on the planet. It just doesn't escalate in many other countries as it does in the US. In Australia, for example, if a disagreement, exacerbated by alcohol, escalates, it is, usually, settled with a punch up but very few die as a result. Ready access to firearms puts a different perspective on the issue.

Recent reports have the 2017 US gun death tally at 40,000 people. This should be a source of national shame.

Hopefully this is not a political statement, but I gain great hope in the lead by students from Stoneman Douglas High School. I feel these are the future leaders that the Unites States needs.

I do not try to be controversial or divisive but I am totally perplexed by the attitude of some in America towards gun ownership.

[GTS225]

There are a few statements here that need some clarification.

Amendment 2A states "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.".
In the current gun climate that exists in parts of the USA, i see no evidence of a "well regulated militia". I see a disparate bunch of people pushing the 2nd Amendment to serve their own purposes. Where is the "well regulated militia"? Where are their HQ's? Do they have a policy or plan, if required? What is their leadership structure?

I see little evidence of compliance with the 2nd Amendment but I do see widespead abuse of it's intent.

The "well regulated militia", as stated, quite literally means a defense force, at least in that context. At the time it was written, it meant the whole of the populace that was able-bodied enough to take up arms against a common enemy. Those militia members were responsible for supplying their own weapon and ammunition, along with the ability to use it efficiently. That definition has been argued much over the last 80 or so years, but the traditional definition has (so far) withstood the test of time.

(As a simple example, how about a small rural settlement in the outback that might have a problem with Hyenas? Might it be that the local folks would take up rifles against them so as to keep the settlement safe?) The "militia" as it's written, is on a larger scale, but the idea is still the same. Today, our "militia" is the National Guard. Controlled individually by their respective states, but available for support to our standing army. It has evolved into the weapons and ammunition being supplied by the state, more for the sake of commonality of weapons, ammo, and training.

Our history books have repeatedly told us that the king's army was sent here, after our Declaration of Independence was drafted and delivered, to confiscate all weapons from the populace of the colonies. Now, those "weapons" were essential tools needed in order to just survive in a new world, and the loss of them would have meant almost certain death, or at the very least, complete dependence on the king and his "graces". Those colonists, made up of blacksmiths, candle makers, bakers, and just plain farmers, responded with force, and over the course of the next seven years, made their Declaration stick, by driving out what at the time, was the world's finest and most organized military force known. Had it not been for firearms, I'm quite certain the outcome would have been quite different.

Perhaps your history books need to be revised.
The American Revolutionary War, also known as the American War of Independence was triggered by the British levying taxes on the colonists that were considered to be unfair. The colonists rebelled and the British backtracked by cancelling all taxes other than the one on tea. This lead to the Boston Tea Party and the dispute escalated from that.

There were attempts by the British to disarm some of the local militias but the primary issue was taxation.

OK, I'll concede your point. I had simply left out those (correct) details in order to highlight the major events. In the grand scheme, "we" wanted our independence from the crown, and being as the crown was showing force, we responded in kind. This series of events, in the long run, taught us a very valuable lesson concerning the subject at hand. Being, that one can never know when bad things might happen, so one should always be prepared for the worst, and hope for the best.

"Do unto others, as you would have others do unto you" is quite appropriate to apply to the mentality

This is a poor attempt to circumvent the rule of law. If all Americans were to follow this edict, total anarchy would prevail..

I beg to differ. This is one of the biblical statements that many laws are based upon. To word it differently; if you don't want someone to steal your property, don't steal anyone else's. If you don't want someone to play loud music late at night, don't do such things yourself. If you don't want anyone to shoot at, or worse into, you, don't do that to anyone else. Conversely, those who do bad deeds toward others, should fully expect the same things to happen to them, either at the hand of their intended victim(s), or later by law enforcement.
It could easily be argued that it is one of the basic tenants of firearms ownership and carry. Having one's property stolen is much less important than loosing your life because some bastard wants to rob a convenience store, but leave no witnesses behind to identify him or her.

Roger

[tony.latham]

I don't have a clue as to why this is being debated here.

If one side or the other is trying to change an opinion or win the argument, forget it. You'll not change either side's view.



I think I'll just go worry about gas spring location. Much more productive.

Tony

But here's a little humor with this subject. One shooter shooting at another because he thought the guy was bigfoot:

https://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/helena-man-reports-being-shot-at-multiple-times-in-the/article_4f27ffe6-9278-5176-8875-6c91d6fbdb2a.html

[KennethW]

Did away with gas springs by using a truck bed cover for a gallery hatch. Now we are off the topic !

[tony.latham]

Did away with gas springs by using a truck bed cover for a gallery hatch. Now we are off the topic !