Finishing Bendable Ply/Luan

Anything to do with mechanical, construction etc

You could all be right.

Postby Guy » Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:07 pm

Dear All,

You could all be right depending on the product you use:

Here is something from the Minwax site:

Q. How does Helmsman® Spar Urethane differ from other polyurethanes?

Helmsman® contains special ultraviolet absorbers to help protect wood from the graying and fading effects of the sun. Helmsman® also contains special oils that allow it to expand and contract with seasonal temperatures changes.

Q. Can Helmsman® be used on interior floors?

No. Helmsman® is formulated to expand and contract with temperature changes. Because it is flexible, it is not suitable for use on floors. Floors require a harder finish such as Minwax® Super Fast-Drying Polyurethane for Floors or Minwax® Water-Based Polyurethane for Floors.

Q. Should Helmsman® Spar Urethane be applied to exterior furniture?

Yes, but no clear exterior finish will permanently protect wood against direct sun, snow, ice and rain. Be sure to check the finish annually to determine if it needs to be recoated. If the finish warrants, apply an additional coat of Helmsman® according to the label directions.
Regards,

Guy
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Postby cracker39 » Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:15 pm

Guy, I used the Helmsman spar varnish thinned to seal my plywood prior to priming. I've used Minwas stain poly products for years making craft items to sell. I love using their polyshades for my crafts.
Dale

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They make a decent product

Postby Guy » Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:08 pm

Dear Dale,

They do make a decent line of products. I just posted that part of the Minwax FAQ, because the posters ahead of me were all correct if they were using different urethanes. I wanted to make sure they understood it and that noone went out and used the furniture/floor urethane on bending plywood or before bending plywood, since that may have caused them problems later. And at least now there is an "official" response on the topic from Minwax.

:thumbsup:
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Re: They make a decent product

Postby Ira » Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:56 pm

Guy wrote:Dear Dale,

They do make a decent line of products. I just posted that part of the Minwax FAQ, because the posters ahead of me were all correct if they were using different urethanes. I wanted to make sure they understood it and that noone went out and used the furniture/floor urethane on bending plywood or before bending plywood, since that may have caused them problems later. And at least now there is an "official" response on the topic from Minwax.

:thumbsup:


That's the thing:

Marine Spar Varnish isn't Miniwax's Spar "Urethane."

I think the Spar part was used because it's such a recognizable word.
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Spar varnish

Postby Guy » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:18 pm

Dear Ira,

Marine spar varnish and Spar varnish are the same thing. They are varnishes specifically formulated with phenolic resins and oils to protect in exterior uses, especially on surfaces which must have flexibility, ie. boats and ships., and must withstand strong wind forces.

Here is a quote from the article below:
Phenolic resins combined with tung oil produce a varnish with superior water resistance, good hardness, exceptional flexibility and good alkali, grease and UV resistance. It's called spar varnish. Unfortunately, the drying times are excruciatingly long, and spar varnish has a deep yellow color that only gets worse as it ages. Still, spar varnish is the best choice for projects, such as outdoor furniture, that will be exposed to the elements.



Here is an article from Fine Woodworking magazine on the subject.

Varnish: An Almost Ideal Finish

Understanding the chemistry behind many common oil varnishes helps you choose the right product

by Chris Minick

My ideal furniture finish would penetrate deep into the wood, dry quickly, provide good abrasion and stain resistance, rub out easily and look great. Also, I want the option to apply this finish with a rag or a brush or a spray gun. Unfortunately, no finish has all of these properties, but oil-based varnish comes pretty close.



Walk into any well-stocked hardware store, and you'll find a bewildering array of cans of varnish. Alkyd, polyurethane, spar, wiping, bar-top, floor, fast-drying, interior and exterior varnishes are the more common types available. With all of these choices, selecting one that's right for your project can be frustrating. Knowing a little about varnish chemistry may help you decide.

They're more alike than different
All varnishes have one thing in common: The backbone of the finish molecule is composed of vegetable oil. Varnishes are made by chemically combining a modifying resin with a vegetable oil to produce a finish molecule that is liquid when applied to the wood surface but solid after it cures to an impervious film in a short period of time. Linseed oil and soybean oil are the most common vegetable oils used in the manufacture of furniture-grade varnish resins. Tung oil is also used, but because it is relatively expensive, you find it only in wipe-on varnish mixes and traditional exterior varnishes. The type of oil used in a varnish resin has less effect on the finish properties than does the amount of oil used.

The long and short of it -- The ratio of oil to modifying resin--known as oil length in the industry vernacular -- determines the flexibility of the dried film, curing or drying time and application method. Varnish resins containing 75% or more oil are called very long-oil varnishes, and they're typically used for wipe-on finishes, the so-called Danish oil finishes. Very long-oil varnishes dry slowly, have great wood penetration and are extremely flexible when cured; but the dried finish film is extremely soft, has poor abrasion resistance and damages easily. These varnishes perform adequately, provided that no detectable finish film is left on the surface of the wood.

Long-oil varnishes are 60% to 75% oil and are primarily used in the manufacture of oil-based paint but recently have been introduced to the wood-finishing arena as fast-dry wipe-on finishes. Long-oil varnishes do dry faster than traditional Danish oil finishes. However, they share many of the same problems that plague their very long-oil brethren.

Medium-oil varnishes contain 45% to 60% oil and form the basis of all brush-on varnishes used in wood finishing. They have reasonably short drying times, good abrasion and stain resistance, penetrate the wood to accentuate its beauty and form a hard but flexible protective surface film. Best of all, medium-oil varnishes can be applied by the three most commonly used methods: wiping, spraying or brushing.

Short-oil varnishes are less than 45% oil and typically require heat to cure, so they are not used for finishing wood. Short-oil varnish resins are used to make the paint for refrigerators, stoves and metal office furniture.



Alkyd varnish.
Once the mainstay of the furniture-finishing trades, this class of varnish is increasingly hard to find.

Polyurethane varnish. Polyurethane dries fairly quickly and exhibits good moisture resistance, but it does not hold up well to the degradation brought on by ultraviolet light.

Fast-dry varnish.
The vinyl toluene and naphtha listed on the label identify this as a fast-drying finish.

CAS No.
Ingredient
64742-89-8
V.M. & P. Naphtha
Unknown
Vinyl Toluene-
Oil Polymer
64742-88-7
Mineral Spirits
1330-20-7
Xylene
100-41-4
Ethylbenzene


Spar varnish.
Tung-oil-based phenolic resins are found in most brands of spar varnish, and they are the ingredients that help this product stand up to the elements.

Ingredient
Tung Oil Phenolic
Resin
Alkyd Resin
Stoddard Solvent
Mineral Spirits
Dipentene

Modifying resins vary in strength -- The modifying resin used in a varnish will determine how well the dried finish film holds up when it is exposed to moisture, ultraviolet (UV) light and general wear and tear. Alkyd varnishes, a term coined in the 1930s to describe an important class of polyesters, traditionally use phthalic anhydride as the modifying resin. Typical alkyd varnishes have good flexibility, very good abrasion resistance, great adhesion, moderate moisture resistance and take a relatively long time to dry and cure (8 to 10 hours to dry to the touch and 16 to 20 hours to re-coat). Alkyd varnishes targeted for furniture making are difficult to find these days, but they remain a mainstay of hardwood floor finishing.

Replacing some or all of the phthalic anhydride with toluene diisocyanate yields the familiar polyurethane varnish, which is also called uralkyd by finish chemists. This modification to make polyurethane decreases the drying and curing times to more tolerable levels and increases the moisture resistance of the finish film, but it sacrifices the UV resistance in the process.

Fast-dry varnish, also called VT varnish, uses styrene or vinyl toluene as the modifying resin to produce a product with remarkably fast drying times. Properly formulated VT varnishes will dry and cure almost as quickly as nitrocellulose lacquer--dry to the touch in 30 minutes and cure to re-coat in less than two hours. However, fast-dry varnishes have slightly less protective properties than standard alkyd varnishes. Still, they are suitable for most furniture applications. But I would not recommend them for heavily used kitchen or dining-room tabletops.

Phenolic resins combined with tung oil produce a varnish with superior water resistance, good hardness, exceptional flexibility and good alkali, grease and UV resistance. It's called spar varnish. Unfortunately, the drying times are excruciatingly long, and spar varnish has a deep yellow color that only gets worse as it ages. Still, spar varnish is the best choice for projects, such as outdoor furniture, that will be exposed to the elements.

Most people choose to brush it on
You can apply varnish with a brush, a rag or a spray gun. Wiping it on is definitely the easiest method, and spraying is the fastest. But brushing is the time-honored technique for applying varnish.

Your success with a brushed-on varnish will depend on practice and attention to detail. I've found that most varnishes are too thick to use right out of the can, so I thin them to about the consistency of whole milk. Prior to dipping the brush into the varnish, you should prewet the bristles with the same solvent used to thin the finish. Prewetting conditions the bristles and prevents the buildup of dried finish at the base of the brush, making it easier to clean later. Shake out the excess thinner, then fill the brush by dipping it into the thinned varnish by no more than half the bristle length. Capillary action will automatically fill the brush reservoir with the proper amount of finish. Tap the bristles on the inside of the can to remove the excess varnish, and always finish the unseen areas of the project first, such as the inside of cases or the underside of tables. You'll be able to judge the flow and leveling properties of the varnish before tackling the show side of the piece. If the viscosity doesn't seem right, add varnish or solvent.

China bristle brush


You don't want a big brush for varnish. A 2-in. or 2-1/2-in. china bristle brush works best for laying a varnish onto flat surfaces. Photo: Michael Pekovich.

Most finishing projects require more than one brush. I use a 1-in. ox-bristle sash brush for coating small or intricate areas such as moldings and spindles. A good-quality 2-in. china bristle brush is ideal for large, flat areas. Larger brushes are inappropriate for furniture finishing because they're just too hard to control.

Avoid the choppy, back-and-forth stroke used to apply house paint --i t will result in an uneven surface and lots of bubbles. Instead, slowly pull the brush across the panel in one continuous motion until the brush reservoir is empty. Hold the brush at about a 45° angle when it first contacts the surface and gradually increase the angle to almost 90° by the end of the stroke. As this bristle angle increases, more varnish is released from the reservoir and flows to the wood surface. I usually get a stroke length of about 18 in. or 20 in. with a fully loaded 2-in. brush.

After the entire surface has been coated, "tip off" the varnish by lightly dragging the bristle tips through the wet finish. Tipping off with an unloaded brush levels out the uneven areas in the wet varnish film and removes unwanted bubbles at the same time. You don't need to sand between coats of varnish unless you have to remove some defect. Simply sanding to increase adhesion is not necessary unless the dried varnish coat is older than six months.

Avoid the pitfalls of using varnish -- Extended drying time under certain conditions is the biggest problem I've experienced with oil-based varnishes. High humidity drastically prolongs the drying time of most varnishes. Anybody that has varnished during the dog days of summer knows just what I'm talking about. I avoid varnishing on those dripping-wet days, if possible; if not, I let a dehumidifier run in my shop for a few days beforehand.

Also, old varnish dries more slowly than fresh varnish. This too has to do with the metallic driers that gradually lose their catalytic powers as the varnish ages. The best way to avoid the problem is to make sure you always use only fresh varnish. Typically, I don't use varnish that is more than one year old. I may waste a few dollars, but I save a mint in frustration.

Chris Minick is a contributing editor to Fine Woodworking magazine.

Photos except where noted: William Duckworth
Regards,

Guy
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Postby cracker39 » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:58 pm

Whew...that's a lot of info to read through, but well worth the time. I learned a thing or two that I didn't know already. Thanks, Guy.
:thumbsup:
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Re: Spar varnish

Postby Ira » Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:13 am

Guy wrote:Dear Ira,

Marine spar varnish and Spar varnish are the same thing.


But are they all urethane???
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Yes and the Same Company

Postby Guy » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:00 am

Dear Ira,

Yes they are all phenolic oils varnishes and, as an additional mindblower, the same company.

The Thompson-Minwax Company is owned by
The Sherwin-Williams Company, who owns:
Pratt & Lambert Paints | Who Manufactures:
38 - Varnish
61 - Paints, Varnishes, Enamels
ACCOLADE - Latex Enamel
CALIBRATED COLORS - Colorants
P & L - Varnishes, Enamel, Etc.
PALGARD - Epoxy Coating
PRATT & LAMBERT - Paints
PRO-HIDE - Paints
RED SEAL - Interior & Exterior Paints & Removers
SOLID HIDE - Rustic Stain
STAINSHIELD - Stain
SUPRIME - Paint
TECH-GUARD - Paints
TONETIC - Wood Stains
VAPEX - Paint & Varnish
VARMOR - Paint
WEATHER-FLEX - Waterproof Coating
WITHSTAND - Paint

The Sherwin-Williams Company | Who Manufactures:
38 - Varnish
50+ - Ceramic Tile Adhesive
61 - Paints, Varnishes & Enamels
ACCOLADE - Latex Enamel
ACME - Paints & Coatings
ACRYGLO
ANDINA
AQUA GLOSS - Paint
AQUA-ROYAL - Paint
AQUA-SATIN - Paint
CALIBRATED COLORS - Colorants
CELLU-TONE - Paints
CHECK GARD - Primer
COLORGIN
CON-LUX
CUPRINOL - Stain/Preservative
DUALITE - Coating
DUPLI-COLOR - Aerosol
DURA POX EPOXY - Mastic, Epoxy
DURA-PLATE EPOXY - Mastic, Epoxy
DUTCH BOY - Paints & Coatings
EFFECTO - Paint
EXCELO
FABULON - Paints & Coatings
FORMBY'S
GLAS-CLAD
GLOBO
H&C CONCRETE STAIN AND SEALERS - Paints & Coatings
HYDRO-ONE
HYDRO-SWADE
JETGLO
KEM - Paints & Coatings
KEM-TONE - Paint
KRYLON - Aerosol
LAZZURIL
LYT-ALL - Paint
MARSON
MARTIN-SENOUR - Paints & Coatings
MERCURY
MINWAX
MOLY-WHITE
OLD QUAKER - Paint
P & L - Varnish & Enamel
PALGARD - Epoxy Coating
PERMA-CLAD - Coatings
PERMALIZE - Paint
POLANE - Paints & Coatings
POOL SHIELD - Swimming Pool Finish
PRATT & LAMBERT - Paints & Coatings
PRO-HIDE PLUS - Paints
PRO-LINE
PROMAR - Coatings
RED DEVIL
ROGERS - Paints & Coatings
RONSEAL
SEAGUARD
SHERWIN WILLIAMS - Paint & Paint Prods.
SOLID HIDE - Rustic Stain
STAINSHIELD - Stain
SUPERPAINT - Coatings
SUPRIME - Paint
TECH-GUARD - Paint
THOMPSON'S
TONETIC - Wood Stain
TRI-FLOW
ULTRABASE 7 - Acrylic Urethane Basecoat
VAPEX - Paint & Varnish
VARMOR - Paint
VITRA-SHIELD - Stipple Finish
VITRALITE - Paint
WEATHER-FLEX - Waterproof Coating
WESTERN
WHITE LIGHTNING

The Thompson-Minwax Company | Who Manufactures:
WATCO - Finishes, Sealers & Waxes
Regards,

Guy
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Postby Loader » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:44 pm

WOW! That's a lot of good info. Thanks Guy!
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Postby halfdome, Danny » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:26 pm

I sprayed 3 coats of lacquer on the 1/8" Baltic Birch plywood that I used for my ceiling and I looks just fine a month later. :D Danny
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Postby Miriam C. » Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:06 pm

Wow Guy,'

Such good information. Where on earth do you find the time?

Dale just keep those questions coming so I don't have to think them up. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Appreciated very much.
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It has been two years

Postby Guy » Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:48 pm

Dear Miriam,

I have been doing this searching and work for my teardrops4vets project for two years. I keep a one gigabyte of internet pages cached on my computer. Every page I have visited in three years. The cache setting for my internet history and the history of my searching is kept for three years. You can set these numbers in your browser options or preferences.

Then I use Google Desktop which is FREE. it actually indexes every word from every file on your computer and every page you visit on the internet. It sits on the bottom taskbar of your computer and allows me to search almost 80 gigabytes in about 3 seconds, whether I am online or not. And as I type in a word or phrase it is constantly updating the search with each new letter I type in.

Then I downloaded Google's Toolbar, which is also free, and it sits as a line at the top of my browser. This is one of the best toolbars out there and there is no advertising or pop-ups with it. I even has a pop-up filter to prevent those annoying pop-ups from invading your screen.

These programs are free, simple to use as email, and amazing time-savers.

Besides this, everyone knows I am a lawyer, however, I am also an architect (unfortunately pre-CAD), so I have learned about this stuff over the years.
Regards,

Guy
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Postby Miriam C. » Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:03 pm

Double Wow. :worship: Not hijacking just borrowing 8)

Will this slow my computer up. I would really like to not have to keep trying to remember where in "my favorites" I hid that one piece of info. I really need. :lol:

I did notice the Google tool bar you put somewhere but got distracted and lost it. :roll:

I will have a long talk with Mike about setting this machine up different or getting a new one. This is only 750 so it creeps.

Thanks Guy
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Postby cracker39 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:46 pm

Miriam C. wrote:Dale just keep those questions coming so I don't have to think them up. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Appreciated very much.
Miriam


My biggest problem, Meriam, is that too often I have the question AFTER I've screwed something up and should have asked weeks earlier.
Dale

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Postby Miriam C. » Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:36 pm

Dale,
I truly am sorry for your anguish, just think of all you have helped. Perhaps you could think of yourself as a teacher in a particularly difficult subject. With students of questionable character. :lol: :lol:

There are people who just get it and the rest of us struggle along. At least you are seeing progress every day. What's a little reverse painting compared to the whole. :D

If you get really frustrated you could pack up the Mrs. and come take some of my screws out. :cry:

Ok Granny lecture over. Back to work.
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