Be careful around your batteries!!

Anything electric, AC or DC

Postby Sonetpro » Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:37 am

}><)))'> ~--------------·´¯) SteveT
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Postby GeorgeTelford » Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:42 am

Hi Steve

From your link

Quote

P5 AGM are entirely intolerant of venting,.... resulting in permenant loss of hydrogen......

Thats the explosive gas.....

Note what it says about alternator charging of AGM's on the same page.

Pge 1 Note the fact that AGM still produces explosive gas

In the same situation as shown at the begining of this thread an AGM would still have exploded, but would have been more violent for 2 reasons, one all explosive gas would still be contained, more pressure would build before fracture due to the sealed nature of the battery.

BTW overcharging is far more likely to happen with an AGM battery sight overvoltage is very damaging to AGM ( and hence it more dangerous at that point )
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Postby Sonetpro » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:14 am

George I refuse to get in an argument with you. You have the unique ability to take a quote completly out of context to support your argument.
And in the end you will get this thread pulled. So I leave you to argue with yourself. I guess you missed this part.
"Instead of venting hydrogen and oxygen like conventional
flooded electrolyte batteries, VRLA batteries recombine
these elements during the recharging process, releasing
virtually no byproducts into the atmosphere. This makes
for an inherently safer battery; it’s spillproof and leakproof,
virtually eliminating the possibility of a hydrogen gas
explosion."
I'm Done.
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Postby GeorgeTelford » Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:38 am

Hi Steve

The point you have just posted is in complete agreement with my first post here regarding AGM's and I quote


The optima (and any AGM Battery) only reduces the chances of battery explosion

So I am not sure what you are trying to say.
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Postby Kevin A » Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:46 am

A note to all concerned, The original intent of this thread has been well established with some very informative discussion. However, the tone it is beginning to take is going to evolve into another heated dicussion that is not going to be tolerated.
"Follow me, I'm right behind you"

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Postby madjack » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:37 pm

...a couple of points...George, you are all wet on the battery box issue...the explosion takes place in the battery (in the posted example) and the battery case is ruptured...the explosion has already occured so the shrapnel, ect, is contained by the battery box...I have seen this first hand more than once...an exploded battery, case ruptured similar to pic WP posted and all of the pieces and acid contained by box...on the Optima batteries, they have a safety blow off vent(works similar in principle to a water heater blow off valve)...if you get to that point, you have other problems to deal with as well....
madjack 8)

p.s. thank you Steve...................
...I have come to believe that, conflict resolution, through violence, is never acceptable.....................mj
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Postby GeorgeTelford » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:02 pm

Hi Jack

I Jack I have only seen the after effects of a few blown batteries and they have blown the top off the battery box and spread Lead and acid outside the confines (but dont take my word for it see the injuries caused by battery box shrapnel in the military link below)

Yes the optima's have a blow off Valve which releases explosive gases, blow that off into another container (the battery box!) hence they can explode just like any other battery.

If like in the original battery a plate buckles which causes ignition, an AGM contains the same explosive mix (see last quote below)

as to battery box safety here is a quote from a military site, relating the injuries to a soldier who had a battery box and the vehicle seat between him and the explosion.

His arm and hand were resting on the passenger seat when the battery box exploded. ... The explosion was caused by arcing of the battery cables

from here https://safety.army.mil/pages/lessonsle ... ttery.html

Do you still think a flimsy plastic box will save you?

Here is another quote highley relevant to the original bomb

The most probable cause of internal battery explosions are from a combination of low electrolyte levels below the plates in the battery, a low resistance bridge is formed between or across the top of the plates, and a build up of hydrogen gas in the cell. The low resistive bridge is called "treeing" between the positive and negative plates. When current flows in the battery, a spark occurs and ignites the residual gas in one or more of the cells. A second possible cause is a manufacturing defect in the weld of one of the plate connecting straps causing a spark igniting the residual gas. Another source of internal battery explosions are caused from direct electrical shorts across the battery's terminals. The battery rapidly over heats form the high current and can explode. The largest number of internal battery explosions occur in hot climates due to the loss of water while starting the engine. Most internal battery explosions could have been prevented if the plates were always covered with electrolyte.
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Postby madjack » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:25 pm

George we are talking apples and oranges here...I am talking about an internal battery explosion, which is obvious in the first picture...you are talking about an external explosion with the terminals arcing...two different things all together...gimme a box for added protection any time....do you wanna be sitting on top of that battery(in WP's post) when it exploded or would you rather be sitting onna box that battery could have been in...if you wanna be sittin' on that battery well so be it...any thing else is you wanting to have an argument and like Steve, I am not going to argue with you...if you wanna argue, go find a door knob to argue with...it may respect your striving to prove your superiority (and showing your insecurities) more so than anyone here will.......
madjack 8)
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Postby GeorgeTelford » Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:02 pm

Hi Jack

Yes the cause of the ignition was different, but the point was that the battery box did not contain the resulting explosion.

If you read the explosives link that I posted earlier you can see that containing an explosion makes it more violent, ie putting it in a box makes it more dangerous, thats not me thats explosive experts.

Battery boxes are designed to catch spills, they are not designed to contain an explosion.
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Postby kayakrguy » Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:52 pm

Hi guys,

2 cents worth. Folks like me really need this board and threads like these.
I think the experiences that people share and the expertise they share is fantastic and I cannot begin to thank all the people who have benefited me during my ummmmm transient case of insanity....<g>

BUT:

I do believe the electrical board is one of the most intimidating boards in terms of how frequently and how quickly amperages get elevated. That is unfortunate because it drowns out the good stuff after a while.

So, what I would like to recommend as a PRACTICAL thing is if person A thinks person B is absolutely WRONG (*&^(*%$) then, calmly, quietly, and in a gentlemanly way send person B a PM. Talk things over, try to reach a consensus and if you can't then agree to disagree.

I do believe there is enough GROUP and individual competence on the board that no one is going to allow dangerously wrong advice to be passed along.

Ok, you get a penny's change <G>

Jim
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Postby kayakrguy » Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:01 pm

One more thing relative to blowing up batteries....

I have been very uneasy about having a battery in the galley even though I will vent the sucker like crazy. Is the trailer tongue a safer location? I want to say yes because the battery is out in the open more, in its own ventilated box....but might get bounced around more....damaged by vibrations etc...

Any thoughts on the location issue?

Jim
A disposition to preserve, and an ability to improve, taken together, would be my standard of a statesman...

But what is liberty without wisdom, and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint.

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Postby emiller » Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:02 pm

I've seen a few batteries explode also, and I'm a fan of the battery box it does help a great deal when a battery goes. In my low riding days having 6 to 8 batteries in the truck for our hydraulics getting hot and bouncing all over the place we had our share of battery explosions mainly with the trunks closed but a few times when servicing the batteries. Never got hurt with batteries blowing. We started putting batteries in boxes and the batteries that have bown in boxes have been contained and they even kept the battery acid from getting all over the trunks.
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Postby madjack » Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:08 pm

Jim, with adequate venting, the galley should be no problem...it is where ours is...the tongue make an excellent location and can help balance out tongue weight but keep in mind that 12vdc power is more prone to voltage loss over a given lenght of wire than 120VAC is. So if all your fuses, ect. are in the galley and the battery is on the tongue then a larger wire is needed to get that power from front to back...a master cutoff switch is advisable at the battery as well....
madjack 8)
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Postby BigPolishJimmy » Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:09 am

So what can be done about it? Sure check your battery, but also, would it help to make the battery box thinner in a spot to engineer a weak point so it can fail in a more safe way? I'm thinking about how I used to put tin cans over fire crackers as a kid. If I add a battery down the road I plan on putting it in a box on the toungue. Would building thicker sides and a thinner roof on the battery box help?
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Battery and Box on tongue?

Postby kayakrguy » Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:42 am

Fellow Volt Freaks,

MJ, I have thought about the distance/resistance/wire size issue and also the return wires from charger etc (unless I put the whoe electrical shebang on the tongue) and that pretty much has held me up because I would have to put some sort of condooit under there....

Box safety issue...one puropose of the battery box is to contain spills, another is to protect the battery from accidental shorts in environments where stuff dropping on battery poles is a problem and some boxes are padded to protect from vibrations; and another could be protection from exploding batteries.

If you want your box to be safer in case of.... ummmmmm.... accelerating shrapnel then take a lesson from bomb disposal folks. To transport suspected bombs or old found military ordnance that cannot be defused on site, they have 'bomb wagons' to remove to safe disposal areas. These are lined with absorbant material eg stuff that 'cushions' the explosive force if detonation occurs during transport.

If I were designing a box that would more safely release explosive energy, I would prefer the enegry to go DOWN--eg. out the bottom...

You get a penny's change for this <g>

Jim
A disposition to preserve, and an ability to improve, taken together, would be my standard of a statesman...

But what is liberty without wisdom, and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint.

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