Thinking of doing graphic wiring diagrams...need input

Anything electric, AC or DC

Postby Tear Les » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:48 pm

angib wrote:Excellent plan, Les.

One thing I would ask for is to make the graphics as realistic as possible, so that those who really don't know anything about electrics can use them - some people may feel that you ought to know at least the basics to do any wiring, but personally I feel at 12 volts that isn't too vital - if smoke comes out, you did it wrong but you're not going to be injured.

As an example, I'm delighted to see that you've shown the negative side of the circuit - a while ago someone couldn't get their lights to work and it turned out they had only installed the positive side as (a) that's all their car had and (b) people only drew one line in the diagrams......

So, how about showing the actual wires running as red-black pairs and connecting individually to the negative bus block, as they would in real life.

Sorry to be picky, but if everyone thinks up one hole into which these diagrams could fall, they'll become perfect.

Andrew


Andrew,

No problem with being picky that's why I posted here for input. I actually had considered drawing the wire pairs but then just didn't do it thinking it really wasn't necessary but I take your point completely and for someone completely new to wiring it would be helpful since using the wooden structure of the tear for a return path isn't going to work out well (obviously not having the negative side at all doesn't work either! :lol: ).
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Postby Tear Les » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:07 pm

del wrote:Les one thing that needs to addressed with wiring is wire gage. Get the gage wrong and you spent way too much (wire to big) or worse (too small). Make sure the fuse is the week link and not the wire.

my 2cents

del


Hi Del,

First off....cool build! :thumbsup: I've been following your thread. You've more guts than I! :lol:

I was thinking about the wire gauge when I did the drawing but I'm a little reluctant to specify it. We're working with pretty small trailers so I can assume a general set of conditions but I can't be certain what someone will really put on a particular circuit. If I specify heavy enough wire to make if safe for a large load than I may be specifying more than necesary for a smaller load. It's a bit of a conundrum.

For instance, I never use anything smaller than #6 wire for battery connections and typically I won't connect any more than one wire to the battery. If I need more connections than that I use a bus bar; stacked connections corrode and oxidize and create high resistance areas (and therefore heat). However, someone with a very simple lighting only system might find that's complete overkill and something as small as a #10 wire might work great.

Also, unfortunately there may be a liability issue here for me as well. I'd hate to tell someone to use #14 wire for their lighting circuit only to have them install a dozen lights, melt the wire, start a fire, and sue me because that's the size wire I specified on my drawing.

Honestly, I think the best thing to do is make some general suggestions (along the lines of what I said about the battery cables) and then refer folks to a wire size chart (which I can include). It's pretty easy to look up the length of run and the amperage on the run and get the right wire size. At least then I'm referring to an industry (several actually) accepted sizing guide.
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Postby Tear Les » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:51 pm

packerz4 wrote:i'm guessing that a lot of the pieces you have singled out like: master switch, mini fuse, circuit breaker etc, are parts and pieces that are in that part of your drawing are the things that are in my converter thingy? :?


Hi again. :D

Ok, lemme see if I can keep this from getting to novel length!

Think of a converter like you a ready-to-go component stereo system; you just pick the one you like the looks of, plug it into the wall, plug in the speakers and you're rockin'. As long as you choose carefully and the system meets your needs it works well. If you move to a larger place and you need more from the system you're out shopping for a new one because you can't change any one item of the system you bought.

In my opinion converters became popular for two reasons. 1) in the beginning RV's had lots of incandescent lighting (using a fair amount of power), the 3-way refrigerator running on 12-volts was (and is) a power hog, the 12-volt TV sucked up power, and so forth and so on, so there had to be a way to feed all those power hungry critters and 2) manufacturers needed a way to install a unit that met the needs of a particular unit they were building that came in a production friendly format; it's a lot easier to install one "box that does it all" then it is to choose separate components and install them individually (that takes a more qualified worker).

Historically converters have been pretty poor performers supplying "dirty" voltage and also killing batteries with poor (really no) charging regulation. These days almost all electrical components are getting major upgrades and converters are no exception. Still, the least expensive of the bunch is not a great performer.

Considering that the converter is specifically designed provide 12-volts indefinitely while the trailer is plugged into shore power it would seem that's its best attribute. So if you have a lot of 12-volt circuits and you'll be plugged into shore power most of the time a converter may be a good choice.

However, if you are off-gird very much I believe that a converter is not a great choice because it can't do (without shore power) the very thing it does best. I think it's more important if you're going to camp away from a power pole that you maximize various parts of your electrical system to maximize the ability to do that. So now we get into wanting to pick specific fuse panels, switch panels, AC panels, battery charger, etc; the one-size-fits-all approach of the converter doesn't work as well anymore.

For instance, if the converter has four DC circuits and you need 6 it's hard to make that work well. If the converter has 3 AC circuits and you want more you can't change it. What if you only need 3 DC circuits but you want 6 AC circuits? Again you either have to find the converter that has exactly what you want or make do.

Mostly, unless you get into new high-quality converters, they're well known for killing batteries. If you really like camping out on your own away from power then you'll most likely want to invest in a really good battery and you don't want some cheeseball converter killing it any time soon. Let's say you buy a good AGM (absorbed glass mat) battery (Optima is one of them; so is Lifeline), you sure want to take care of that expensive puppy and you'll want a good multi-stage charger feeding it charging power with tender loving care. Something that's easy to get with a standalone charger but not so easy with a converter.

I'm just skimming the surface here; it would be really hard to get into details unless we're talking specifics and can match the product with the need. For alot of folks, especially those that have shore power most of the time a converter can work though I think with the products available today there's a good argument for putting together your own system the way you want it rather than accepting the all-in-one solution.

There's no "right" or "wrong" answer to this; it really only matters that it works for you whichever way you go.
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Re: Thinking of doing graphic wiring diagrams...need input

Postby Joanne » Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:08 pm

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

All I can say is that I would have used pictures but it never occurred to me! (I could have had a V-8! ). I was glad when folks improved on my basic circuit diagrams and came up with some really great options for other builders. Your drawings add to that body of knowledge!

I'll be reading this thread, that's for certain.

Joanne


Tear Les wrote:Hi All,

I thought I might try and put something together for folks that think more in terms of seeing things than thinking about them abstractly or looking at a bunch of lines running around on a drawing.

I'd like to know if you think it's worth pursuing my idea and to get some feedback on what you do or don't like about it.

Here's an example of a basic DC wiring layout:

<snip the drawing to save space>

I'd also do the same for the AC side and then for the whole system and add some text for guidelines, hints and tips.

:thumbdown: OR :thumbsup:

Thanks...
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Postby Tear Les » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:06 pm

Ok...

Here's the latest sample. I've gone to paired wires to the loads and also added the bus bar for the postive side in keeping with my argument that things shouldn't be stacked on the battery terminal.

I also added the wire size chart but it may be too small; I'll have to work on sizing.

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Postby Dale M. » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:09 pm

Ok.. I got to way in on wire gauge issues..... There are charts available to determine wire gauges using length and amperage loads....

Quite frankly in cases of anything other than main buss wires from battery to fuse panel and ground bar, 14 gauge wire and fused at 15 amps or less should be quite fine for any accessory application in TD

One chart I have states.

For a #14 gauge wire you can safely carry 10 amps for 30 feet, 18 amps for 20 feet...

If you use a #10 for main buss run between battery and fuse panel its good for 100 amps for 10 feet... These numbers are way beyond what most will actually draw in TD electrical system... Jiminee Crickets ... 100 amps is a amperage one can arc weld a trailer frame with...

http://www.rbeelectronics.com/wtable.htm

When one is actually doing wiring at least think of current demands of appliance, most are going to be a lot less than what ever a selected wire size and fuse capacity you are worried about... You can probably use 14 gauge wire for everything (ecxept main buss cables) and never have a issue.

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Postby brian_bp » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:16 pm

Although my initial reaction was that I would rather have a normal wiring diagram which showed specific connection details at the devices, I quickly realized that for most people the photographic identification of devices will be very valuable. I am comfortable with schematic symbols for devices; normal people are not.

I agree with the logic of showing the wiring to end devices as two-wire sets, but I am afraid that the resulting crossing lines makes it hard to follow and will lose the same people for whom the pictorial presentation is most valuable. As long as the full circuit is shown, I'm not sure that suggesting adjacent routing of the wires has a lot of value.

Perhaps the wire gauge could be indicated simply by using thicker lines where appropriate, maybe in only two or three steps; that would immediately say "this is a place for thick wire". I don't know if most people will actually calculate the total current at any given point in the system an look up the right gauge in the chart.

Thanks, Les... great work!
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Postby brian_bp » Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:29 pm

Dale M. wrote:...For a #14 gauge wire you can safely carry 10 amps for 30 feet, 18 amps for 20 feet...

If you use a #10 for main buss run between battery and fuse panel its good for 100 amps for 10 feet... These numbers are way beyond what most will actually draw in TD electrical system... Jiminee Crickets ... 100 amps is a amperage one can arc weld a trailer frame with...

Yes, but safe and appropriate are two very different things. When you run 10 amps through a few feet of cable in your house, you lose the same voltage as when you run 10 amps through the same distance in the trailer... but it's a much bigger deal when you're subtracting from 12volts than when you're subtracting from 120 volts.

Would you really weld (generally a low-voltage process) at 100A with 10 gauge wire? Probably not.

I wouldn't put much faith in the RBE Electronics page: compare the current and power numbers for 6V and 12V in any one row of the table, and they don't make sense together. For example, 3 A at 6 V is indeed 18 W, but 6 A at 12V is 72 W, not 36 W.
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Postby Dale M. » Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:07 pm

Perhaps that site was not good choice, but I was in pinch for time and took first site that came along.....

But then again if you are going to pull 100 amps through TD system you proably will have place lit with searchlights and a sound system you can hear a mile away....

Lets keep it practical....

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Postby del » Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:08 pm

Honestly, I think the best thing to do is make some general suggestions (along the lines of what I said about the battery cables) and then refer folks to a wire size chart (which I can include). It's pretty easy to look up the length of run and the amperage on the run and get the right wire size. At least then I'm referring to an industry (several actually) accepted sizing guide.


This idea sounds better than mine for multiple reasons. If one builds with different components (or location) they can look at their power requirements and pick a wire gage from a chart and decide what gage to use for their needs.

If I had not said this before, I think this is a wonderful idea. making this look professional is way beyond my computer skills, so my hats off to you.

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Postby Tear Les » Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:42 pm

Dale M. wrote:Ok.. I got to way in on wire gauge issues..... There are charts available to determine wire gauges using length and amperage loads....

Quite frankly in cases of anything other than main buss wires from battery to fuse panel and ground bar, 14 gauge wire and fused at 15 amps or less should be quite fine for any accessory application in TD

One chart I have states.

For a #14 gauge wire you can safely carry 10 amps for 30 feet, 18 amps for 20 feet...

If you use a #10 for main buss run between battery and fuse panel its good for 100 amps for 10 feet... These numbers are way beyond what most will actually draw in TD electrical system... Jiminee Crickets ... 100 amps is a amperage one can arc weld a trailer frame with...

http://www.rbeelectronics.com/wtable.htm

When one is actually doing wiring at least think of current demands of appliance, most are going to be a lot less than what ever a selected wire size and fuse capacity you are worried about... You can probably use 14 gauge wire for everything (ecxept main buss cables) and never have a issue.

Dale


Hi Dale,

I'd say you should find a different web site. According to the Handbook of Electronic Tables and Formulas for American Wire Gauge #10 wire can carry a maximum of 55 amps in air (single conductor, not bundled). In an enclosed space and bundled with other conductors the Power Transmission rating is 15 amps.

For comparison a #14 wire can carry a max of 32 amps in air and 5.9 amps for Power Transmission (enclosed space and bundled).

Then there's the question of voltage drop over the run. A #14 wire with a total run of 20 feet (10 feet out and 10 feet back (which would be really easy to do in a tear) will have 1/2 volt drop if it's carrying 10 amps (4.3% which is fine). But if the run gets too long or the amperage to high the voltage drop gets too high.

The #6 wire I use is rated for a maximum of 101 amps in air (37 amps enclosed and bundled). No matter how you look at it, it is larger than necessary. But the other thing I look at is its physical strength and resistance to damage since it will be my main supplier of power. A #6 wire between the battery and the bus bar is a robust connection that's not likely to give trouble even if something falls on it or it ends up under something. There's more to choosing the appropriate wire than just the numbers in a chart.

This dicsussion is exactly why I don't want to indicate the gauge of wire to be used in any particular place. There are any number of resources available (one of the better ones I've found is at www.blueseasystems.com, click on their circuit wizard) to figure out what wire size is appropriate.

Figuring out the load on any given circuit is quite easy and anyone that's going to take responsibility for wiring a teardrop or trailer (or anything else for that matter) should learn enough to figure that out. Everything on the circuit is rated in watts or amps already so it's just a matter of adding up the load. [For those that don't know dividing watts by voltage (12 volts in this case) gives amps.]

I don't believe in blanket statements with regard to wiring. Each individual circuit must be considered and a decision made. As soon as someone decides #14 works everywhere, runs it from the front of the tear to the back to power up a 12-volt receptacle then plugs in a bazzillion candle power spotlight while the 12-volt cooler is running on the same circuit may well find out why #14 is not "the" wire to use in every situation.

I'd guess a lot of folks are quite undersized on the charging wire from the Tow Vehicle to the TD. If the battery is in the front of the TV and the other battery at the tail of the TD we could easily have 35-feet or so to travel (one way). If you have a 65-amp alternator on the TV and a dead battery in the TD you'll need #6 wire to handle the amperage over that distance and you'll still have a 14% votage drop. Which means the TD battery will be 1.7 volts lower than the voltage regulator on the alternator thinks it is. Basically it will never fully charge without going to #4 wire. If you move the battery to the tongue of the trailer the voltage drop on the #6 wire falls to just 8% (.9 volts)...distance (wire length) makes a huge difference in 12-volt wiring.
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Postby madjack » Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:57 am

Les...some advice...K.I.S.S.........give some links to the more technical/esoteric side of eletricity................. 8)
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Postby angib » Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:30 am

Tear Les wrote:Here's the latest sample.

If you're going to include battery charging from the tow vehicle, you need to add a tow-vehicle-ground to trailer-ground connection.

Keeping the trailer marker/turn/stop light wiring out of the diagram makes sense for readability, so it's just a link from mid-air to the ground bus block, I guess.

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Postby Tear Les » Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:11 am

I'm going back to the basic drawing to get it tweaked, then I'll go for the rest.

Image

Andrew, I did think the paired wires got a bit busy looking and maybe a little confusing. I've shown the here as individual wires but on the other side for less clutter. Do you think this works or should I go back to the pairs?

I've got the colored wire size chart here now with the color code for wire size, and also some notes about the table. Is is large enough to read and is it intuitive enough to use without a lot of explanation?

Off to work for the day...back tonight.

Thanks as always...
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Postby Dale M. » Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:54 am

I like this latest graphic with the unpaired battery/ground leads, its less visually confusing....

Also as for VOLTAGE drop.......Is anything we put in a tear that critical for voltage drop... These are for most cases simple appliances like light bulbs and items with electric motors what will operant anywhere from about 10 volts (a bit dim or slow) to 16 volts (a bit bright or fast).... We can get too technical here, we make this to complicated and confusing.... Simply using a common wire size and fuse size, takes the complication out of construction. I still maintain for most practical applications if one uses 14 gauge wire and a maximum of a 10 amp fuses per circuit, it will suffice for almost any electrical system for any "generic" devices use in TD....

IN 38 years of experience in wiring telecommunication switches , diesel generators, cell phone systems and fiber optics systems, I have never been accused of using wire too small or fuse capacities to small/large to get the job done....

Geezzz... the housing industry and travel trailer industry use this philosophy all the time.... What makes a electrical circuit in a TD so unique it needs to be over engineered to point of confusion....

Keep in mind that K.I.S.S. works real well for those not versed in the esoteric field of power distribution.

This URL may work better...

http://bluesea.com/

Also did it occur to you that you may be in violation of copyright laws by using propriety images taken from web sites and catalogs without their permissions for use in your graphics.... Just heads up in case somebody makes it a issue....

Dale
Last edited by Dale M. on Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
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