My wiring plans

Anything electric, AC or DC

Postby bdosborn » Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:42 pm

toypusher wrote:Mike,

Sure, I am waiting for Bruce to give me his recommendations. However, as a general rule, I believe that 15 or 20 amps would be appropriate for most of the 12V circuits. The AC side will have a 30 amp for me and the GFIC will do most of the work anyway. I will update drawing(s) when I am more sure of the appropriate fuse/circuit breaker sizes and wire gage size.
Kerry


There's two ways to size everything: design the wires and fuses around the actual loads, or we can make some general assumptions which I did here:.
http://home.comcast.net/%7Ebdosborn/tea ... iagram.pdf
Since everyone does their trailers differently, I'd lean towards some general assumptions, meaning worst case, very conservative. Does that sound okay to everyone?

Also, here's a list of wire sizes and ampacity for THHN 75 & 90 degree wire per NEC-310-16, which is a close to generic as we'll get. YMMV. As always, read the package for your actual product.

#18 - 14A
#16 - 18A
#12 - 25A
#10 - 35A
#8 - 50A
#6 - 65A
Bruce

P.S. You may have noticed I edited this post. My diagram is pretty general (after looking at it again with an Adobe reader that works) so I changed the post to reflect that. I also fixed the link.
Last edited by bdosborn on Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby bdosborn » Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:50 pm

toypusher wrote:Bruce,

Here's a link to what I think would be the perfect replacement for the fuses in the drawing. I want circuit breakers vs fuses. Please let me know what you think and what amps for each circuit

http://order.waytekwire.com/IMAGES/M37/catalog/217_067

The PANEL MOUNT CIRCUIT BREAKERS in lower left corner.


Kerry


Stupid Adobe quit working. I'll take a look when I get home.
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Postby bdosborn » Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:04 pm

Oh yeah:

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:lol:

I got this out of the insurance company handbook we have to read for work. Seems like it might be usefull in regards to the copyright stuff.
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Last edited by bdosborn on Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby bdosborn » Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:57 pm

toypusher wrote:Bruce,

Here's a link to what I think would be the perfect replacement for the fuses in the drawing. I want circuit breakers vs fuses. Please let me know what you think and what amps for each circuit

http://order.waytekwire.com/IMAGES/M37/catalog/217_067

The PANEL MOUNT CIRCUIT BREAKERS in lower left corner.


Kerry


Kerry,

Those are very slick. I don't see why they wouldn't work just fine. The only thing that caught my eye is that they are for an overload as opposed to a fault condition. There's technically a big difference when your looking at big AC circuit breaker (you want the correct mixture of both), but I'd still use them in my trailer. How much do they cost and where can you get them?
Bruce :thumbsup:
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Postby Nitetimes » Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:12 am

Generally speaking you shouldn't go higher than a 30amp breaker/fuse on 10ga. wire, 20amp on 12ga wire and 15amp on 14ga. This is a rule of thumb for 110v house wiring. When doing 12v you are using much lower amp draws on most circuits such as lighting so you could realistically get away with 16 to 18ga wire but to avoid overheating concerns it would be best just to wire everything but the large draw circuits with 14ga wire. Speaker wire is definitely a good choice as it is much more flexible than normal stranded house wiring and the insulation is pretty good too. Another good choice would be the brown lamp cord which you can also get in 14ga and pretty inexpensive too. And for those of you that aren't sure how to tell which wire is which in that brown insulation, if you take a close look at it you will see that on one run there are several thin ribs and the other is smooth. The ribs will always be on the same run as will the smooth on the other.
I intend to use a 10ga 30amp circuit from the shore power and break it down in a small breaker box for the 110v that way I will be able to get plenty of juice for A/C and or heat without the possibility of overheating anything.
The car fuses work fine for 12v circuits and the same amp/wire size applies to them. A little better alternative tho is the circuit breakers you can buy that will plug in the same as the fuses do, giving you a way to trouble shoot a short with fuses while not having to worry about changing a fuse due to a quick overload or slip once in a while.
You can always use a smaller fuse/breaker than your line size but avoid going over, that's how fires start!!
By the way, nice schematics everyone. Lots of good ideas.
Rich


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Postby mikeschn » Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:04 am

bdosborn wrote:#12 - 25A


That's my favorite size!!! I'll be using 12 gauge again. I've typically been putting in 10 amp fuses. Yea, I don't see much load. If I am running something that is more than 10 amps, I want to know, as it'll kill my battery pretty fast!!!

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Postby toypusher » Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:50 am

Bruce,

I have not found a supplier yet, :x but will contact the company that makes them and get the name of someone, and or a price if they will sell directly to individuals. Looks like the company only sells to contractors, etc. The price on their website is $2.70 for 10,15,20,30, or 40 amp. I will keep you posted. :D

BTW: I want to make a custom panel/enclosure to put them in also. If it works out well, maybe I can make it available to all. When done, I will definitely post pics and drawings.

If you get a chance, would you take the latest drawing that I posted and mark it up with the wire sizes. I know that I probably have it about right and was going to use 12G romex for the AC and probably just run 12G stranded for all the DC stuff and only change the size of breaker for each circuit.

Kerry

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Postby toypusher » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:42 am

I just talked to Waytekwire on the phone and the lady informed me that they do sell direct to individuals. She said to order online and an account will be setup for the buyer, however, it the order is not at least $35.00, that there would be an additional $5.00 charge. I still think that would be worth it.

http://www.waytek.com

Kerry
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Postby Jeff » Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:55 am

to find amps, or current draw-divide wattage of load by voltage, 120watts divided by 12 volts equals 10 amps, by the same token if you have a amp rating, 10 amps times 12volts is 120 watts it's ohms law.
for wire sizing per the National Electric Code use 14awg for 15 amp circuits 12 awg 20 amp circuits 10 awg 30 amp circuits. you should only load to 80% of conductor rating in other words 15ampx80%=12amps or 144 watts(12ax12v)

i hope this may help you
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Postby toypusher » Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:04 am

Jeff,

Thanks, any and all info is useful.


Kerry
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Postby Joanne » Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:01 pm

toypusher wrote:Bruce,

Here's a link to what I think would be the perfect replacement for the fuses in the drawing. I want circuit breakers vs fuses. Please let me know what you think and what amps for each circuit

http://order.waytekwire.com/IMAGES/M37/catalog/217_067

The PANEL MOUNT CIRCUIT BREAKERS in lower left corner.


Kerry



Another good place to find 110v and 12v electrical supplies is at boating stores. As an example, West Marine has an extensive selection of power distribution panels, monitors, breakers, and fuse panels. Look under the categories METERS & DISTRIBUTION and SWITCHES, FUSES & ACCESSORIES.

http://www.westmarine.com/electrical.html


The 12v fuse block that I'm going to use is this one:

12v Fuse Block

Although marine products are often more expensive, they are usually designed for adverse environments. I figure that if it will stand up to the conditions on a boat sitting in salt water, it will work in my mini-trailer. (Notice I didn't call it a 'tear'). ;)

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Postby bdosborn » Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:20 pm

Jeff wrote:for wire sizing per the National Electric Code use 14awg for 15 amp circuits 12 awg 20 amp circuits 10 awg 30 amp circuits. you should only load to 80% of conductor rating in other words 15ampx80%=12amps or 144 watts(12ax12v)


Well, sort of. Its actually circuit breakers that are rated at 80%, not the wire. A #12 is rated for 25 amps, you just can't use anything higher than a 20A circuit breaker to protect it by NEC. And fuses are 100% rated so you can load them at 100%. BUT, thats just me being nitpicky, you can't go wrong loading circuits as you've shown it. It helps with voltage drop and inrush.
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Postby bdosborn » Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:47 pm

Okay, here's how I would do it:

http://home.comcast.net/~bdosborn/tear/ ... iagram.pdf

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Postby mikeschn » Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:09 pm

That's perfect Bruce... I can't see what else a person could ask for.

I typically use a motor base or a shoreline inlet for AC but your Nema plug looks just fine!

I probably also wouldn't buy two different size wires, i.e. #12 & #14.

I would just buy a length of #12 and use it everywhere except where the heavier stuff is required. Less thinking required. :lol:

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Postby asianflava » Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:06 pm

Cars are wired with 14 & 16 ga wires. We usually would use a 12ft RCA cable to connect the stereo to an amplifier in the trunk. If you consider an SUV's length it would be longer. Anyway, all the parking lights and taillights are typically on the same circuit (same fuse). I'm shure that they would draw more current than the LED lights that I plan on using.

Is there a flaw in this thinking? Would it be ok to run 16ga wire 15ft (maybe less) for the porch lights that only draw 123ma? Only be the L & R porch lights will be on that curcuit. I will probably start running wires soon (after I figure out my power panel) so I am trying to figure this out.
I know that this is nothing official but I was using this as a guide:
http://www.susquehanna.com/susq/other/wiring.htm
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