Some Electrical Design Questions

Anything electric, AC or DC

Postby cracker39 » Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:48 pm

madjack wrote:...Dale, I went digging around for info on the convertors I linked to. The info I found is this...these units are close to being standard issue in many pop-up and RV's and the battery charging set-up is listed as automatic...so it has at least a 2 stage chaging circuit(charge/maintenance)...they may or may not have a 3rd stage(anti-sulfation/wakeup)... here is a link to a model with a 3 stage charging circuit...
madjack 8)


At least this one isn't as costly as a lot I have seen. It's $123, just over twice the price of the CS6000. But, if it does a better job, then I suppose the extra $$ is worth it.......I read some comments on the WFCO on a camping forum. People seem to like it and one stated that there was no shipping charge and they got theirs in two days. Not bad. :thumbsup:
Dale

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Postby GeorgeTelford » Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:19 pm

vairman wrote:Is there anything wrong with using this type of charger??
http://www.batterychargers.com/images/F ... -520MA.jpg
I used one for over 2 years, and I lived in my camper for about a year... And here's the funny part, my lighting was all 12 volt and my battery was one for a riding lawnmower, I could run the lights for about 12 hrs on a charge...

Greg


Hi Greg

I missed this post of yours, thats not a true staged charger. I hate to see these advertised for leisure use, if used as a site charger and power supply they could cause serious injury (they would get away with it due to their instructions and the fact that its obviously a bench charger)
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Postby madjack » Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:43 pm

Dale, I sent an email to the folks that build the CS6000 and asked 'em about the charging circuit...if it was staged or not and what they meant by "aotomatic"
madjack 8)
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Postby cracker39 » Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:02 pm

Jack, please let me know what you find out. I guess I was a little leery of getting a quality converter with a decent charger for $50. You get what you pay for I suppose. Meanwhile, the WFCO 3-stage converter is looking pretty good if the CS6000 isn't staged.
Dale

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Postby madjack » Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:06 pm

cracker39 wrote:Jack, please let me know what you find out. I guess I was a little leery of getting a quality converter with a decent charger for $50. You get what you pay for I suppose. Meanwhile, the WFCO 3-stage converter is looking pretty good if the CS6000 isn't staged.


rahgah willco.............................................. 8)
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Postby GeorgeTelford » Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:53 am

Hi

According to the specs its max Output is 13.4Volts therefore it cannot be a three stage charger.
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Postby cracker39 » Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:06 am

Sorry I am such a novice at electrical matters, especially regarding DC. As soon as I think I uderstand it, another question or two pops up that I need ansered. These questions are for George and anyone else who is well versed in DC voltage/amperage usage. And PLEASE, keep the answers simple enough for me to comprehend. (one or two sylable words will be good).
:D

Question 1: Assuming I will be using only lights and vent fan from my 12V battery for a few hours each day, say 24 amps per day total. On a three day weekend with shore power to the converter, what is the down side to having a single stage charger putting out constant 13.4 volts? Even if it outputs 2 amps per hour, it should (I think) bring my battery back to full charge.

Question 2: I found a good explanation of the stages of a multi-stage charger: My second question is, regarding the WFCO converter with the 3-stage charger. Their specs states “Output: Nominal13.6 VDC (Includes charging and load) Boost 14.4 VDC; Sleep 13.2 VDC” . How do their 3 stages compare with the 4 stages explained below (What does the 3-stage charger NOT do that the 4-stage does):

Stage 1: Deep Discharge Charging Pulse Mode
The Charger starts charging at 0.5V and give pulse current up to 5V. This has effect of removing loose sulphation formed during deep discharge state of the battery.

Stage 2: Constant Current Mode (CC)
The charger changes to constant current 2.5A. When the battery voltage reaches up to 14.4V, the charging stage changes from (CC) Constant Current to CV (Constant Voltage) mode.

Stage 3: Constant Voltage Mode (CV)
The charger holds the battery at 14.4V and the current slowly reduces. When the current reaches at 0.5 C (C= Battery Capacity), this point called the Switching Point. The Switching Point is one of the great features of this battery charger that it can adjust the current automatically according to the battery capacity. Other chargers without microprocessors are not capable to adjust the

Stage 4: Standby Voltage Mode
The charger maintains the battery voltage at 13.8V and current slowly reduces to zero. Charger can be left connected indefinitely without harming the battery.

Recharging:
If the battery voltage drops to 13.8V, the charger changes from any mode to Constant Current mode and restart charging. The charging cycle will go through Stage 2 to Stage 4.


Question 3: Is there any great (i.e. really important) disadvantage of having a 3-stage vs. a 4-stage charging system when the power usage is light (24-30 amps per day max). I plan on fully charging my battery once I get home and putting a float charger on it, unless the 3-stage charger will suffice as a float charger.
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Postby GeorgeTelford » Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:08 am

Hi Dale

Question 1: Assuming I will be using only lights and vent fan from my 12V battery for a few hours each day, say 24 amps per day total. On a three day weekend with shore power to the converter, what is the down side to having a single stage charger putting out constant 13.4 volts? Even if it outputs 2 amps per hour, it should (I think) bring my battery back to full charge.

Answer 1: Ok if you are using 24 Amps per day and that is being supplied by the convertor, in this situation the battery is merely a capacitor to aid smoothing and if this is the case do you need a battery at all?

But if you require to have a battery that will be supplying the lights off grid, then you want that battery fully charged, A convertor wont do it, I have tested UK convertor's that output 13.8 Volts and after 4 Weeks of constant charging with NO loads they still do not get the battery charged at much over 90%, the 13.4 Volts on US convertors would be worse.

Question 2: I found a good explanation of the stages of a multi-stage charger: My second question is, regarding the WFCO converter with the 3-stage charger. Their specs states “Output: Nominal13.6 VDC (Includes charging and load) Boost 14.4 VDC; Sleep 13.2 VDC” . How do their 3 stages compare with the 4 stages explained below (What does the 3-stage charger NOT do that the 4-stage does): Etc etc see original post.

Answer 2: Some 3 stage chargers are not intended to be used as power supplies, their program would revert to charging if say you switched a light on it would drop the ternminal voltage and thus kick in another full charging cycle(even if the battery were full), thats why I always tell people to avoid using bench chargers as plumbed in systems, this could lead to thermal runaway and a battery explosion (and a battery explodes with same force as a stick of dynomite) The WFCO is intended for hooked up use, its also low voltage enough for use with Gel and AGM batteries, its not the best charger due to these voltage levels being made idiot proof for the American market (To aviod muppet litigation)

Comparisons of 3 Stage for one manufacturer with the 3 or 4 stages of another manufacturer are dificult and would be hard to explain or even meaningless to a non techy person. Consider this though some three stage chargers work on a set time for each stage, this means that if the bank is larger it will not be charged and will re cycle, the Sterling UK and Pro Marine (USA) descern the bank size and alter the cycle accordingly, I have an 1100 Ah battery bank (yes that right 10X110 Ah batteries) and the sterling charges them fully in one single(4 stage) cycle and supplies the motorhome's power while charging too.


This link will explain a lot though its the sterling brochure but its very informative too http://www.downloads.sterling-power.com ... nglish.pdf

Question 3: Is there any great (i.e. really important) disadvantage of having a 3-stage vs. a 4-stage charging system when the power usage is light (24-30 amps per day max). I plan on fully charging my battery once I get home and putting a float charger on it, unless the 3-stage charger will suffice as a float charger.

Answer 3: yes you get less useful ah out of the same battery, The battery will not last as long (in years)

Say a 100 amp hour battery is poorly charged lets say it gets 90% in (and NEVER gets connected to the alternator) thats 40 Amps per battery available to use. 30 Amps a day (for three days) is more than the capacity of a single 100 Ah battery that as been poorly charged (ie any method that isnt a GOOD 3-4 stage charger) so you would require 3 X 100 ah batteries to supply your three days At 30 Amps per Day. Charged properly with a Good 4 stage charger gives you 50 Amps available per battery therefore 3 days would be OK from 2 100 Ah batteries. Your batteries will last longer (life as in years) I always hook mine up when I get home, that means I always have Fully charged batteries.

Float chargers may get the battery up into the 90's percentage wise, but even after trying junk charger's for a month at a time NONE as ever got close to 100% charging a battery, I define Junk as any charger that's not a 3-4 Stage charger.
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Electrical Diagram

Postby misu55 » Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:55 am

Thanks to everyone for your responses. Based on everything I have read here and on the other posts here in the Electrical Forum, below is my proposed electrical diagram.

Image

I have left out in-line fuses and most of the switches for simplicity purposes.

I think this setup will give me the most flexibility and accomplish everything I wanted to do.

I need to verify is the maximum amperage for the AC pass-thru relay. The WFCO Power center is rated at 35 Amps and I want to make sure I can run a 20 amp circuit through it for the GFCI receptacles.

I also need to figure out whether or not I should use a solenoid or shunt trip for the charging circuit from the tow vehicle (or if this is even necessary).

Here are the links to the parts I am going to be using:

Honda Generator: http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/ModelDetail.asp?ModelName=eu2000i

WFCO Power Center - 3 Stage Converter/Battery Charger: http://www.bestconverter.com/view_category.asp?cat=65

WFCO Transfer Relay: http://www.bestconverter.com/product.asp?itemid=48&catid=53

WFCO 600 Watt Inverter: http://www.bestconverter.com/view_category.asp?cat=54

Sterling Alternator Regulator: http://www.sterling-power.com/
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