SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRAILER

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SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRAILER

Postby DWT77 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:18 pm

I read through some threads but didn't find what I was looking for. Can someone help me figure this out?

I don't want to run different 110/120 outlets for my shore power and inverter power.

I was thinking that a Double Pole Double Throw relay before the PD4045 could accomplish that. Below are some links to some relays that I think would work.

I have made a crude wiring diagram but I have a couple of concerns on how to run the wiring. It's not complete and I could use some assistance.
When not connected to shore power the inverter would supply 110v through the normally closed contacts.
When shore power is connected the relay would energize and supply 110v through the Normally Open contacts

1. If use a DPDT relay do I need to worry about the converter running on the PD4045 when I am not connected to shore power? Essentially creating a loop from the inverter and converter?
2. Do I need to isolate the converter circuit from the inverter circuit?
3. Will a shared neutral/ground from shore power and the inverter be a problem? How would I tie in the neutrals from the shore power and inverter?
4. Would a better route be just to use an Automatic Transfer Switch? See Link

Relay Links
http://www.newark.com/schneider-electri ... dp/10M6366
http://www.newark.com/potter-brumfield- ... dp/33F1536

Automatic Transfer Switch (ATS)
https://www.amazon.com/Progressive-Dyna ... tch+30+amp
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby DWT77 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:32 pm

Also I possibly want a 12v/110v ARB fridge/freezer in the future. So I am wiring for it as well.

Will wiring up the trailer like this affect how the freezer senses what power input is being supplied?
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby troubleScottie » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:18 pm

A couple of concerns:

1) an inverter draws power even when there are no devices drawing power. You need a switch between the battery and the inverter to turn off when not in use. This switch should be easily accessible.
2) to run simple devices eg lights or usb port/batteries, the quality of the inverter does not matter; devices with motors or electronic devices eg fans, refrig, you really need a good quality sine wave output. This means the cost of the inverter may go up.
3) given the inefficiencies of the inverter and added transition in the frig back to DC, you are better off running the frig directly from the battery rather than the inverter. Obviously if you have shore power, AC is fine.

The electro-magnetic switch might be overkill unless the switch is in an inconvenient location. Then the switch always is connecting to the inverter when the power is off ( see 1 above). A manual switch might be better.


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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby DWT77 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:22 am

troubleScottie wrote:A couple of concerns:

1) an inverter draws power even when there are no devices drawing power. You need a switch between the battery and the inverter to turn off when not in use. This switch should be easily accessible.
This is the specific inverter I have. It has a remote switch I am planning on mounting in the cabin. The inverter will also be mounted in the tongue box.
https://www.amazon.com/VertaMax-Inverte ... 1500&psc=1

2) to run simple devices eg lights or usb port/batteries, the quality of the inverter does not matter; devices with motors or electronic devices eg fans, refrig, you really need a good quality sine wave output. This means the cost of the inverter may go up.


3) given the inefficiencies of the inverter and added transition in the frig back to DC, you are better off running the frig directly from the battery rather than the inverter. Obviously if you have shore power, AC is fine.
This make sense to just keep the fridge on 12v all the time since the battery will be charging while hooked up to shore power

The electro-magnetic switch might be overkill unless the switch is in an inconvenient location. Then the switch always is connecting to the inverter when the power is off ( see 1 above). A manual switch might be better.


Michael Krolewski.


All of my electronics will be housed in the top compartment of my tongue box

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Thanks for the feedback Michael
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby Socal Tom » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:20 pm

I would think you would need a relay in the pd4045 that would stop charging the battery power when the inverter is on would be needed.


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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby Socal Tom » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:50 am

I think I've come up with a simple solution.

This drawing is what I think you probably have now.
Standard Wiring.jpg
Standard Wiring.jpg (39.78 KiB) Viewed 639 times


Have the PD4045 output feed a 120vplug ( this will reduce the number of circuit breakers you can use, but how many do you really need on a TD?)
Have the inverter feed a 120V plug
then have a secondary cord that feeds the interior outlets, and plug that into the source you need like this
convertible Wiring.jpg
convertible Wiring.jpg (51.64 KiB) Viewed 639 times


You will have to excuse my crappy drawings.
Tom

Or is that what you drew and I just didn't get it?
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby DWT77 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:01 pm

Socal Tom wrote:I think I've come up with a simple solution.

This drawing is what I think you probably have now.
Standard Wiring.jpg


Have the PD4045 output feed a 120vplug ( this will reduce the number of circuit breakers you can use, but how many do you really need on a TD?)
Have the inverter feed a 120V plug
then have a secondary cord that feeds the interior outlets, and plug that into the source you need like this
convertible Wiring.jpg


You will have to excuse my crappy drawings.
Tom

Or is that what you drew and I just didn't get it?


You had the top drawing correct

I think at this point I will just move forward with having inverter outlets and shore power outlets.

Thanks for your feedback and taking the time to help me out!
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby Shadow Catcher » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:52 pm

I used a 30A DPDT switch, and the inverter is, when needed plugged into the battery and the line to the AC circuit using Anderson Power Poles.
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby garyimler1 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:36 pm

Just a thought, you could wire top outlet on plug to 110 Volt and bottom outlet to inverter by cutting the lug between the outlets.
Just a thought no need for isolation this way.
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby Tom&Shelly » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:21 am

garyimler1 wrote:Just a thought, you could wire top outlet on plug to 110 Volt and bottom outlet to inverter by cutting the lug between the outlets.
Just a thought no need for isolation this way.


Careful though--there is a potential safety problem there. Someone, someday, unfamiliar with the way it is wired, might think they were okay to work on the box after throwing the circuit breaker, or turning off the inverter, whatever, without realizing there is another source of power in the box. Probably not an issue if the person who wired the system is the one who works on it, but something to consider.

Almost got bit that way working on a house once, in my status as an amateur electrician. :shock:

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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby Aguyfromohio » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:17 am

We plan to use a unit like this Aims Power inverter/charger
Image

They are not cheap, $600. But they do function as a system controller, passing through grid AC when it's available or sending inverted battery power.
We like the all-in-one aspect of it. Nice inverter, nice battery charger, nice controller. All controlled automatically no matter what sources are available.
Our DC circuits are only lights, we will connect them to the battery. If connected to shore power the unit will be charging the battery and power goes on through to the DC lights.
Only a single 120 VAC system, getting power always from the unit, shore power or not.
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby Dale M. » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:01 am

Think what you want is already available....

https://www.progressivedyn.com/rv/autom ... #downloads

https://www.progressivedyn.com/wp-conte ... nglish.pdf

Does not the PD 4050 put out 120VAC from battery power, and are you wanting to use same outlet(s) for shore power?.... The Generator inputs could be output from the PD 4050 and shore power cord is just that.... Seems to me if PD 4050 is switched OFF and you are plugged in to shore power OR if you are NOT plugged into shore power and have PD 4050 turned ON you are going to have 120VAC to output of change over switch (AC outlets) with out need for second inverter?

Changeover relay.jpg
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby Socal Tom » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:52 am

Dale M. wrote:Think what you want is already available....

https://www.progressivedyn.com/rv/autom ... #downloads

https://www.progressivedyn.com/wp-conte ... nglish.pdf

Does not the PD 4050 put out 120VAC from battery power, and are you wanting to use same outlet(s) for shore power?.... The Generator inputs could be output from the PD 4050 and shore power cord is just that.... Seems to me if PD 4050 is switched OFF and you are plugged in to shore power OR if you are NOT plugged into shore power and have PD 4050 turned ON you are going to have 120VAC to output of change over switch (AC outlets) with out need for second inverter?

Changeover relay.jpg


Dale

The PD4050 supplies 12V from the battery, or 120V from shore power, but it does not include an inverter to make 120V from 12V. The thing about transfer switches like that is they are intended for switching between a built in generator and a shore power. They don't accomadate for the fact that the PD4050 wants to charge the battery, that is the source of the 120V.
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby DWT77 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:57 am

I called Progressive Dynamics. They told me to use a sub panel with a 20 amp breaker for the inverter along with the ATS. This way is separates the inverter 110v from the PD 4045. Thus not creating a loop to the converter. They are going to email me a diagram. When I receive it I will get it posted.

Thanks everyone!
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby Aguyfromohio » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:54 am

DWT77 wrote:I called Progressive Dynamics. They told me to use a sub panel with a 20 amp breaker for the inverter along with the ATS. This way is separates the inverter 110v from the PD 4045. Thus not creating a loop to the converter. They are going to email me a diagram. When I receive it I will get it posted.

Thanks everyone!


That makes sense.
The Aims inverter/charger includes the Automatic Transfer Switch inside the box, making the 110 VAC switch over automatic going from inverter to shore power and back again
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