SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRAILER

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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby Aguyfromohio » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:55 am

DWT77 wrote:I called Progressive Dynamics. They told me to use a sub panel with a 20 amp breaker for the inverter along with the ATS. This way is separates the inverter 110v from the PD 4045. Thus not creating a loop to the converter. They are going to email me a diagram. When I receive it I will get it posted.

Thanks everyone!


That makes sense.
The Aims inverter/charger we like includes the Automatic Transfer Switch inside the box, making the 110 VAC switch over automatic going from inverter to shore power and back again
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby DWT77 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:07 pm

Aguyfromohio wrote:
DWT77 wrote:I called Progressive Dynamics. They told me to use a sub panel with a 20 amp breaker for the inverter along with the ATS. This way is separates the inverter 110v from the PD 4045. Thus not creating a loop to the converter. They are going to email me a diagram. When I receive it I will get it posted.

Thanks everyone!


That makes sense.
The Aims inverter/charger includes the Automatic Transfer Switch inside the box, making the 110 VAC switch over automatic going from inverter to shore power and back again


That is a pretty nice all in one unit
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby DWT77 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:30 pm

This is what I received.
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby Dale M. » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:45 am

All well and good with PD ATS, but you will need a master switch to turn on/off the inverter so it is not 'ON' if you are plugged into shore power, since the circuit operation description states generator power controls when ATS is operated you can inadvertently be on generator power even with shore power available OR inverter is running (still using energy) even though it may not be suppling power to sub panel through ATS... Probably a couple of pilot lamps on "control panel" to signify which power source is active and if inverter is on/off (power switch to inverter)....

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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby DWT77 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:19 pm

Dale M. wrote:All well and good with PD ATS, but you will need a master switch to turn on/off the inverter so it is not 'ON' if you are plugged into shore power, since the circuit operation description states generator power controls when ATS is operated you can inadvertently be on generator power even with shore power available OR inverter is running (still using energy) even though it may not be suppling power to sub panel through ATS... Probably a couple of pilot lamps on "control panel" to signify which power source is active and if inverter is on/off (power switch to inverter)....

Dale


The inverter I have has a on/ff switch. It also has a remote switch I am going to mount inside the cabin.

From what I can tell on the drawing they sent me it still uses separate outlets for the shore power and inverter power. I am going to call them tomorrow to see if we can work out how they can use the same outlets.
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby Dale M. » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:55 pm

IN the text from PD it mentions the ATS (Automatic Transfer Switch).... So inverter output goes into ATS and shore power goes into ATS..... Output of ATS goes to sub panel then outlets/receptacles...

PD4050-ATS.jpg
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PD 5110610 or PD5110010 ...
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby DWT77 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:25 pm

I have been working on my AC circuits. Finally got out in the garage with a multi-meter and ohmed out some wires and relays.

On the PD5110610V Automatic Transfer Switch (which is essentially a double pole double throw relay) I had to move a couple of the wires so the Normally Open (NO) and Normally Closed (NC) contacts were in the correct position. I may take a picture of the relay to show that a little better. (Edit: see picture of PD5110610V below)

The Inverter Neutral (N) and Hot (H) go to the NC contacts of the PD5110610V and the Shore Power N and H go to the NO contacts of the PD5110610V

All relays are drawn in the de-energized position. (As if I was not connected to shore power)

The Converter in the PD4045 receives its Hot wire from CB2 via the Converter Relay. In the de-energized state the NC is a dead end. This disconnects the Converter but allows power to feed through the NC contacts (from Inverter) of the PD5110610V and sending power to CB1 bus bar. Thus still providing power to CB3 and CB4 which are tied into the outlets. The Trailer Battery supplies power to the 12v system via the DC bus in the PD4045

When connected to Shore Power the coil on the PD5110610V energizes and throws power to the NO contacts. This also energizes the Converter Relay and now power has a path via the NO contacts on the Converter Relay from CB2 to the PD4045 Converter. Now the Converter is supplying the 12v to the DC bus. CB1 is receiving its power from the NO contacts from the PD5110610V. Thus providing power to CB3, CB4 and to the outlets.

This allows me to use the same outlets throughout the trailer and not have to run additional wires or worry about which outlet is a shore outlet or an inverter outlet. Also takes away the chance of back feeding power into the converter or inverter.

I have also isolated the Grounds between the inverter and shore power by running the Ground through the NC contact on the Converter Relay

Using the PD5110610V ATS also allows for the time delay in the switch. So if I connect a generator the time delay circuit will let the generator come up to speed.

I believe you could just use two DPDT throw relays one a 30 amp and another 15 amp to save some money if you aren't worried about a time delay circuit.

I would still have to turn off the Inverter manually when not on shore power because I wouldn't want it to draw power for 110 AC when not needed.

I haven't drawn out any fuses or breakers to the battery or 12v system. I will work on that as well.

Does anyone see any issues with the AC being ran this way?
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby DWT77 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:09 pm

The wiring and connections for the PD5110610V Automatic Transfer Switch

I haven't bought the second relay yet. I need to look on http://www.newark.com/c/switches-relays/relays
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby Dale M. » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:33 am

Not sure why you insist in having DPDT switch for converter.... ATS does the function of disconnecting converter already.... THE "converter switch" is just added hardware that makes installation more complicated and confusing... And GREEN wire safety ground should not be switched, they all should be common....

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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby DWT77 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:55 pm

Dale M. wrote:Not sure why you insist in having DPDT switch for converter.... ATS does the function of disconnecting converter already.... THE "converter switch" is just added hardware that makes installation more complicated and confusing... And GREEN wire safety ground should not be switched, they all should be common....

Dale


The ATS does not disconnect the Converter. All the ATS does is switch between Shore/Generator or Inverter. Anytime CB1 the 30 amp main breaker has power all of the circuit breakers on that bus have power. The converter receives its power from the 15 amp branch circuit CB2. The only way to kill that power would be to physically trip the breaker CB2 to the converter. The relay will disconnect the converter automatically

The reason I am wanting to disconnect the converter is because if I am boon docking and using the inverter there is no reason to waste energy powering the converter in the PD4045.

Leaving the converter powered on with the inverter essentially is going from DC to AC to DC (Battery to Inverter to Converter to the DC bus) If I disconnect the converter the DC will be powered directly from the battery which is also connected to the DC bus. No wasted energy in the converter

I can agree with you on the ground they can all be connected to common.
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby Dale M. » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:22 pm

DWT77 wrote:
Dale M. wrote:Not sure why you insist in having DPDT switch for converter.... ATS does the function of disconnecting converter already.... THE "converter switch" is just added hardware that makes installation more complicated and confusing... And GREEN wire safety ground should not be switched, they all should be common....

Dale


The ATS does not disconnect the Converter. All the ATS does is switch between Shore/Generator or Inverter. Anytime CB1 the 30 amp main breaker has power all of the circuit breakers on that bus have power. The converter receives its power from the 15 amp branch circuit CB2. The only way to kill that power would be to physically trip the breaker CB2 to the converter. The relay will disconnect the converter automatically

The reason I am wanting to disconnect the converter is because if I am boon docking and using the inverter there is no reason to waste energy powering the converter in the PD4045.



Leaving the converter powered on with the inverter essentially is going from DC to AC to DC (Battery to Inverter to Converter to the DC bus) If I disconnect the converter the DC will be powered directly from the battery which is also connected to the DC bus. No wasted energy in the converter

I can agree with you on the ground they can all be connected to common.


IF you DO NOT have shore power, the converter is (effectively) disconnected..... IF you do have shore power you don't need inverter.... The transfer switch effective disconnects converter (back feed) IF you have inverter ON and it is connected to GEN leads of transfer switch and control of system is with inverter (generator- read operation of ATS again)... Please revisit my sketch some more.... IF you eliminate the converter control relay, you eliminate one thing (of many) that will probably fail you at 11:00PM on a dark and stormy night...

But you will have to add secondary breaker panel if you do no want all receptacles on singe output of inverter or converter....


IF you DO have shore power 120VAC will take BLUE path from shore power plug to receptical (and converter will be on)...

IF you DO NOT have shore power (converter will effectively be off) and 120 VAC will take RED path from inverter to receptical.. With inverter having control of transfer switch...

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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby DWT77 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:44 pm

Dale I drew this out. I think it is how you described. I think where we were differing was the location of the ATS. I believe you have if after the PD 4045

So on this drawing when Shore power is connected it immediately feeds CB1 30 amp breaker.
That will feed CB2 and the Converter and power the DC bus.
Voltage is also fed to CB4 via the bus bar.
Voltage hits the NO contacts of the ATS energizing the coil
Voltage then goes to the 20 amp CB on the Sub panel. That feeds the other two 15 amp breakers that is connected to the outlets.

When shore power is removed
Voltage to CB1 is removed which removes the converter CB2 as well. (disconnecting the converter) The battery now supplies power to the DC bus
Now voltage can pass through the ATS via the NC contacts to the Sub panel 20 amp breaker that feeds the other two 15 amp breakers that is connected to the outlets.

I think both ways work but you are correct your way takes one relay out of the system that could potentially fail. I will look and see if I can make room for an extra sub panel.
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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby Dale M. » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:13 am

Very good...

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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby bdosborn » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:49 am

Make sure you don't let the ATS switch over to the inverter when shore power is connected. While the ATS transfer is a break-before-make connection, there isn't a center off delay - the transfer is made quickly. Any large motors that are running (like A/C) will back-feed current that is out of phase with the inverter and create a short circuit. I took my ATS out and replaced it with a 3 way switch with a center off position for that reason. Also, I thought the ATS was a power hog as mine pulled about 10W when the contacts were holding in to inverter power.

Here's the type of switch I used:

Rotary Cam Switch

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Re: SHORE POWER & INVERTER USING SAME OUTLETS THROUGHOUT TRA

Postby bdosborn » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:37 am

P.S. Here's the completed switch, I installed it in a small electrical box with LED lights that come on when the source is available.

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I used MC cable for all my 120V wiring as I wanted it protected and make it clear to any future owners that it was not a 12V circuit. I wouldn't use a box any smaller than the one I used as it was a tight fit to get everything in there. It's about 2/3 the size of the ATS it replaced.

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