Grounding Your Camper

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Bruce

First you said this

Get the cord that Tom showed a picture of, use the tester and you'll be fine. You have more chance of dying in an auto wreck on the way to the campground than you do from the 120V if you use reasonable caution.
Bruce


Now this is an extension cord and is not covering the chassis and skin with bonded to earth/Ground, so to me this is you advocating breaking code,Tehn you change your mind with the next quote, even you are disagreeing with your earlier reccomendation.


my opinion is that you should ground the frame and you should ground the metal skin, for all the reasons discussed above. A live wire may never, ever come in contact with the skin but a wire to ground it is cheap and easy and it should keep you from being lit up.

First you tell me I am wrong for disagreeing with ya and then you agree with me.

[bdosborn]

Hi Bruce

First you said this

Get the cord that Tom showed a picture of, use the tester and you'll be fine. You have more chance of dying in an auto wreck on the way to the campground than you do from the 120V if you use reasonable caution.
Bruce

George,

If you remember from the rest of the post that Warpony said he didn't want to use a breaker or wiring in his trailer, only an extension cord. The he decided he didn't want any 120V after all the discussion of electrocution. I just wanted to point out that I felt the yellow cord was safe enough, given all the other risks we take in our life, to use. The yellow cord has a ground wire, GFCI and overload protection; everything that is required by the NEC for a hardwired installation. The only thing it lacks is a bond to the trailer frame. Yes, it would be a bit safer if there was a bond but the GFCI would have to fail, the cord insulation would have to be cut, the insulation on the hot wire would have to be cut and the hot wire would have to be touching metal to energize the frame. I find it hard to believe that the cord can't be used safely, especially if you examine the cord before using it.

Now this is an extension cord and is not covering the chassis and skin with bonded to earth/Ground, so to me this is you advocating breaking code,Tehn you change your mind with the next quote, even you are disagreeing with your earlier reccomendation.


my opinion is that you should ground the frame and you should ground the metal skin, for all the reasons discussed above. A live wire may never, ever come in contact with the skin but a wire to ground it is cheap and easy and it should keep you from being lit up.

First you tell me I am wrong for disagreeing with ya and then you agree with me.

I guess I could have made this more clear. I highly recommend grounding the frame and metal skin on a trailer with a hardwired installation. There's really no good reason not to do since its easy enough to do and it can save you from potentially being electrocuted. As a point of minutiae I might add that the ground wire isn't required for GFCI outlets to function properly but it is an NEC requirement for safety reasons. So yeah, I disagree and I agree with you.
Bruce

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Bruce

I think we are much closer than the posts suggest then.

But the GFCI would not have to fail to kill ya, a straight short across your body with no earth in the tear would do it (but as we both agree the tear should be earth bonded now......)

[Rickxr2]

Could it be you are both saying the same thing in a different language? Go to your corners, take off your gloves, take a deep breath and relax. Please excuse me if I have overstepped my boundries.

Rick

[madjack]

Could it be you are both saying the same thing in a different language? Go to your corners, take off your gloves, take a deep breath and relax. Please excuse me if I have overstepped my boundries.

Rick

Rick you saved me the trouble of saying it first...George and BD have a long and rich history here of arguing technical details about electricity......
madjack

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Rick

Could it be you are both saying the same thing in a different language?

No, because Bruce did suggest that using an extension lead as the electrical system on a tear would be OK and its not, it is against code and also as the potential to be fatal (its not outright dangerous in itself, but it is still safer to do it the correct way)

[Larwyn]

I was unaware that a code existed for homebuilt camping trailers. Could someone direct me to that publication?

As for the yellow extesion cord mentioned in this thread;

My understanding is that it includes both overcurrent (circuit breaker) and differential (gfci) protection. It is factory wired and UL listed. Seems to me it would be a much better choice than the old orange 12/3 outdoor extension cord that many of us have used while tent camping. It is probably also much more likely to be properly wired than some homebuilt campers.

That being said I do agree that grounding the skin (if metal) and frame would not be a bad idea, and could easily be accomplished, even if using that "dangerous" yellow cord with GFCI and Ckt Bkr.

I think common sense goes a long way. If we, as homebuilders, are required to conform with Building Code, Electrical Code, OSHA standards, etc., I think I will just convert mine to a storage shed. I get enough of that stuff on the job, protecting and monitoring 345,000 volt transmission lines.

[bdosborn]

No, because Bruce did suggest that using an extension lead as the electrical system on a tear would be OK and its not, it is against code and also as the potential to be fatal (its not outright dangerous in itself, but it is still safer to do it the correct way)

George,

I did a code search and couldn't find where it is a requirement for the extension cord to be bonded to the trailer frame or any other metal for that matter. Of course we don't have the same codes you do on this side if the pond so its probably a moot point.
Bruce

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Bruce

Now you are being deliberately obtuse, of course extension cords should not be bonded, because they are not meant to be used as trailer power supplies

An extension cord should not be used for a teardrop camper, thats not what it was intended for as well you know (or at least you should if you are a qualified electrician)

When you have finished having a laugh think of the people on this board, some of whom are now unsure of what to do and yet others may follow your advice and possibly be injured or killed, all so you can mess around and have some fun.

Someone posted trailer/camper code on here a while back, you know whats right Bruce, do everyone a favour and stop playing the fool, it could prove dangerous.

[mikeschn]

All I can say at this point is I'm glad you guys are working thru this without it turning into a flame war. You both have covered a lot of material, and make a lot of good points.

I think a lot of us are waiting for a consensus. So once you two guys come to an agreement, please write up a consensus for us.

Thanks,

Mike...

[GeorgeTelford]

Hi Mike, all

Where do we finally stand?

The Yellow unit, it will be pretty much safe in almost all circumstances and certainly would not be as bad as some of the set ups I have seen (would you believe mains socket in shower room in caravan? also a self builder over here decided to add an extra socket and did it before the RCD MCB distrobution board.

The yellow unit cannot be properly bonded to earth the chassis and Metal body (it could be bodged but thats a different story)

In a totally wooden camper it would be as safe as the proper way of doing it, because there would be nothing to bond to (unless you have a steel sink) So in Endo's scenario it would be OK, we are back pretty much to bird on a wire scenario.

[bdosborn]

Okay here's my final answer:

For hardwired installations (120V wiring, circuit breaker, GFCI and ground in trailer)
- Bond the frame to ground.
- Bond metal skin to ground.
- Don't bond the neutral to ground.

Softwired Installation (No 120V wiring in trailer)
- Portable cord with integral circuit breaker, GFCI and ground is okay, as long as is it is accessable and not buried in the walls.

Now lets move on to DC grounding shall we?
Bruce

[TomS]

An extension cord should not be used for a teardrop camper, thats not what it was intended for as well you know (or at least you should if you are a qualified electrician)

How else are we supposed to bring power from the electrical box at the campsite to the tear? Walk around a campground some time. Every motorhome and trailer uses extension cords of one type or another.

In a totally wooden camper it would be as safe as the proper way of doing it, because there would be nothing to bond to (unless you have a steel sink) So in Endo's scenario it would be OK, we are back pretty much to bird on a wire scenario.

This is pretty close to my situation. Although my tear has a steel frame. The exterior is painted plywood. In order for the frame to become energized, a wire would have to pop loose, break out of the non-conductive outlet box, bore it's way through the 1/2" plywood floor and 1 1/2" foam insulation before contacting the frame. Obviously, this is a highly unlikely scenerio, even in the most extreme scenario.

[Chuck Craven]

Don’t get mad at me but! I work with industrial AC power every day from 15a 120v simple to 680 3 phase y and delta configurations up to 1000’s of amps. The new national electrical code for campgrounds is. At a minimum when providing power to campers, must have a metallic water resistant power pole with a 20 amp 120v single phase circuit breaker and GFI protected outlet plus a 50a 220 two phase circuit breaker protected outlet. Both outlets must have hot, ground and neutral electrical connections. Must meet standard colure codes. The neutral and ground connections must be bonded to two 10’ ground rods approximately 3 or more feed apart at the master supply electrical distribution box only. All metallic electrical boxes must be bonded to the common ground wires. But guess what this is for new or campgrounds or ones that have new construction being done. Old campgrounds are grandfathered to the older standers at the time of present service was installed. Some states campgrounds have mandated theirs to be updated but not all states have.
So what does this mean to your tear? Well your camper can be 15a 120vac or 20a 120vac or 220vac 50a. You can put in a breaker panel as long as the total breaker current does not exceed the supply current. You can GFI or not GFI. You can ground the camper to the supply ground or not ground. It is left open to you. Except if you have a integrated power generator like the motor homes have, then every thing changes. A small standalone generator does not count.
Now think of this scenario! Willy Wanka gets a gob with your favorite campground as a maintenance man. Your favorite site #10 the GFI outlet got damaged from lightning last night and Willy was sent over to fix the damaged outlet. Willy is colure blind and wired the new outlet as green wire to the gold terminal, white to the silver terminal and black to the green terminal. He turns on the breaker and it pops, looks at his work and it looks good. Note: Willy is colure blind! So he uses fiber washers and nylon screws because there is some water in the box to hold in the GDI outlet. Now the breaker works fine.
You now pull in to your favorite campsite. Its dark and you plug in your tear and one of your kids grabs the door handle to the tear and does the 60 hurts dance. You wired the green ground wire to the chassis and skin of your tear. But Willy wired that to the black hot wire. Think about this do you really want to connect the frame and skin to electrical ground if you don’t have to.

Chuck

[TomS]

Those outlet testers are cheap enough. I think it would be prudent to buy one and check the CG's circuit before plugging in. Also having your own breaker and GFCI is essential.