How to seal carriage bolts

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How to seal carriage bolts

Postby dancam » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:38 pm

Whats popular for sealing the plywood floor where your carriage bolt goes through against rot? Silicon? Window and door calking? Pl premium? Do you actually treat it with 'the mix' first?

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Re: How to seal carriage bolts

Postby tony.latham » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:35 pm

dancam wrote:Whats popular for sealing the plywood floor where your carriage bolt goes through against rot? Silicon? Window and door calking? Pl premium? Do you actually treat it with 'the mix' first?

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I give mine a good slopping of The Mix. It'll soak deep into the end grain. Wait twenty minutes and give it another coat. The stuff does a great job where the sun doesn't shine.

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Re: How to seal carriage bolts

Postby John61CT » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:03 pm

Bed in good Butyl Rubber.

This is the best

http://shop.marinehowto.com/products/bed-it-tape
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Re: How to seal carriage bolts

Postby working on it » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:48 pm

  • I used carriage bolts all over my trailer, they are my primary fasteners, using them to bolt my trailer together, reserving use of screws to the interior only. I used carriage bolts (with either acorn nuts or nylocks) to attach the floor to frame, all wall attachment brackets, all door/hatch handles-locks-hinges...everywhere. I used 1/4"-20 (90% of fasteners used were stainless steel), except for the floor to frame (3/8"-16), and a 1/2"-13 for my spare tire attachment. All holes were thru 3/4" plywood; most holes were drilled prior to saturation with the "mix", during the initial stages of the build, so I carefully coated all threads with the same Loctite PL adhesive I used for all joints, using enough to guarantee no leaks, and I over-coated the exposed heads (exterior) with clear acrylic (UV resistant). Holes drilled later on, thru wood previously saturated with the mix and paint, got the same PL adhesive and acrylic. Underneath the trailer, I also used spray-on automotive undercoating, for extra sealing. By using PL directly on the threads of the bolts, I made sure that the inner grain of the plywood was completely sealed, and all excess spread under the carriage bolt head and under the nut, so as to be completely waterproof.
  • So far, after 4 years, no leaks! But, I still worry about the eight holes drilled in the roof, so I touch up the acrylic over the acorn nuts every year. Another thing, I have had problems when removing the stainless fasteners... they are soft, and break sometimes (I used a 1/4" impact for assembly, probably over-torquing them), so I am replacing them with std. carriage bolts, using the same sealing regimen.
  • stainless carriage bolts used for door install.jpg
    stainless carriage bolts used for door install.jpg (131.89 KiB) Viewed 796 times
    carriage bolt heads coated with "mix" & acrylic, threads sealed w/PL adhesive
Last edited by working on it on Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to seal carriage bolts

Postby dancam » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:15 pm

Ok! How long after putting 'the mix' on the edges of the holes do i have to wait before bolting and calking it up? I bought some urethane today.

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Re: How to seal carriage bolts

Postby tony.latham » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:47 am

dancam wrote:Ok! How long after putting 'the mix' on the edges of the holes do i have to wait before bolting and calking it up? I bought some urethane today.

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Almost immediately if you were not caulking. But if you are going to caulk, then I'd wait at least a day.

Poly has a fast cure time but when you thin it, it takes a long time for those thinners to evaporate and thus a much longer cure time.

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Re: How to seal carriage bolts

Postby dancam » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:57 am

tony.latham wrote:
dancam wrote:Ok! How long after putting 'the mix' on the edges of the holes do i have to wait before bolting and calking it up? I bought some urethane today.

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Almost immediately if you were not caulking. But if you are going to caulk, then I'd wait at least a day.

Poly has a fast cure time but when you thin it, it takes a long time for those thinners to evaporate and thus a much longer cure time.

Tony


Hmm, ok. I had read to use mineral spirits which take forever to evaporate. What about using a faster evaporating thinner like isopropyl alcohol?

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Re: How to seal carriage bolts

Postby tony.latham » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:59 am

faster evaporating thinner like isopropyl alcohol?


Dunno...

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Re: How to seal carriage bolts

Postby working on it » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:12 pm

dancam wrote:
tony.latham wrote:
dancam wrote:Ok! How long after putting 'the mix' on the edges of the holes do i have to wait before bolting and calking it up? I bought some urethane today.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Almost immediately if you were not caulking. But if you are going to caulk, then I'd wait at least a day.

Poly has a fast cure time but when you thin it, it takes a long time for those thinners to evaporate and thus a much longer cure time.

Tony


Hmm, ok. I had read to use mineral spirits which take forever to evaporate. What about using a faster evaporating thinner like isopropyl alcohol?

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk
  • I tried several different types of thinner, experimenting to achieve the best combination of application time/flash time/cure time, when doing test pieces prior to actually using poly "mixes", and later thinned initial coats of my various paints (farm implement and reflective silo paints). My tests were done in 80-85 degree weather, slightly more humid than I liked, but showed that the poly "mix" worked best with the cheapest, highest VOC thinner, the farm implement paint best when thinned with the same, but the silo paint worked best when thinned with mineral spirits. The silo paint had high VOC already, so to prolong the drying time I needed mineral spirits to enable the reflective aluminum particles to spread evenly. I totally avoided the "odorless", milky-white paint thinner that I find in stores next to the good stuff...it's not even good enough to clean brushes with, IMHO.
  • Even so, when I poly'd the exterior, in direct sun and 106 degree heat, the two coats of 50/50 mix both dried within minutes, followed by a 100% coat of poly, dried after two hours, and another full coat, which dried overnight, after garaging it. I also painted the front, in a different manner, using only one coat each of "mix", full poly, 75% implement paint (dried in two hours), and 100% paint.
  • When I applied the silo paint on the front slope, it was drying slower than the other surfaces (due to mineral spirits on the first and third coats), so I applied the final coat in the garage, the next day, when I did the sides, top, put two more coats on the front,and finished the previously started hatch in the much cooler work area. The unattached doors, and the contrasting black edging (which sealed the exposed plywood edge grain), were done later that weekend (I spent 9 consecutive afternoons over at my friend's shop, 50 miles from home, but only did work on the trailer for half that time!).
  • Still, by painting most of the trailer in temperatures much higher than recommended, and using faster dissipating thinner for the "mix", I was able to apply all exterior coatings (and the inside of the hatch and doors), allowed them to dry, and never had to wait very long to continue the assembly of the trailer. I recommend using high VOC paint thinner over mineral spirits for the "mix", but use mineral spirits if paint properties require slower drying time.
  • 96776967779678096782 multiple coats of poly and paint done in one afternoon in 06 degree heat
  • 96832 finishing the paint job in an air-conditioned 40x60 shop, the next afternoon
  • 2013 HHRv,"squareback/simple" TTT, semi-offroad? 4x8, 2000+ lbs travel weight
  • featuring: 3500 lb Dexter axle w/brakes & HD leaf spring system > riding on General Grabber 27x8.5-14LT tires, LED lighting inside, A/C & heat, AGM battery 12vdc, 110vac from extended run generator onboard or park power, Coleman dual-fuel stove & Northstar lantern
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Re: How to seal carriage bolts

Postby dancam » Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:23 pm

working on it wrote:
dancam wrote:
tony.latham wrote:
dancam wrote:Ok! How long after putting 'the mix' on the edges of the holes do i have to wait before bolting and calking it up? I bought some urethane today.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Almost immediately if you were not caulking. But if you are going to caulk, then I'd wait at least a day.

Poly has a fast cure time but when you thin it, it takes a long time for those thinners to evaporate and thus a much longer cure time.

Tony


Hmm, ok. I had read to use mineral spirits which take forever to evaporate. What about using a faster evaporating thinner like isopropyl alcohol?

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk
  • I tried several different types of thinner, experimenting to achieve the best combination of application time/flash time/cure time, when doing test pieces prior to actually using poly "mixes", and later thinned initial coats of my various paints (farm implement and reflective silo paints). My tests were done in 80-85 degree weather, slightly more humid than I liked, but showed that the poly "mix" worked best with the cheapest, highest VOC thinner, the farm implement paint best when thinned with the same, but the silo paint worked best when thinned with mineral spirits. The silo paint had high VOC already, so to prolong the drying time I needed mineral spirits to enable the reflective aluminum particles to spread evenly. I totally avoided the "odorless", milky-white paint thinner that I find in stores next to the good stuff...it's not even good enough to clean brushes with, IMHO.
  • Even so, when I poly'd the exterior, in direct sun and 106 degree heat, the two coats of 50/50 mix both dried within minutes, followed by a 100% coat of poly, dried after two hours, and another full coat, which dried overnight, after garaging it. I also painted the front, in a different manner, using only one coat each of "mix", full poly, 75% implement paint (dried in two hours), and 100% paint.
  • When I applied the silo paint on the front slope, it was drying slower than the other surfaces (due to mineral spirits on the first and third coats), so I applied the final coat in the garage, the next day, when I did the sides, top, put two more coats on the front,and finished the previously started hatch in the much cooler work area. The unattached doors, and the contrasting black edging (which sealed the exposed plywood edge grain), were done later that weekend (I spent 9 consecutive afternoons over at my friend's shop, 50 miles from home, but only did work on the trailer for half that time!).
  • Still, by painting most of the trailer in temperatures much higher than recommended, and using faster dissipating thinner for the "mix", I was able to apply all exterior coatings (and the inside of the hatch and doors), allowed them to dry, and never had to wait very long to continue the assembly of the trailer. I recommend using high VOC paint thinner over mineral spirits for the "mix", but use mineral spirits if paint properties require slower drying time.
  • 96776967779678096782 multiple coats of poly and paint done in one afternoon in 06 degree heat
  • 96832 finishing the paint job in an air-conditioned 40x60 shop, the next afternoon

Ok! Good info, thanks a lot! Im sure you have that posted somewhere else, whats the title of it called? Just trying to learn the type of thing to search for for future.
I dont have anything called high voc paint thinner, so out of what i have what would be best for fast drying just to do 3/8 dia holes?
Isopropyl alcohol 99%
Mineral spirits,
denatured alcohol
Xylene
Acetone
Medium speed urethane grade reducer low voc (1.7pounds/gallon)
Methyl ethyl keyone
Gunwash (toluene,mek,methanol mix)

Thanks again!

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Re: How to seal carriage bolts

Postby BigRay » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:57 pm

every hole gets a liberal coat of TB3

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Re: How to seal carriage bolts

Postby working on it » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:23 pm

BigRay wrote:every hole gets a liberal coat of TB3

  • That'll work, too. The main thing is just be sure that none of the drilled holes permits water entry into the unprotected inner plywood (the outer plies are poly'd, as well as most interior walls or floors), so using TB3, or TB2, would work as well as PL adhesive, caulk, or such to fill the holes. I used plywood with phenolic resin between the plies, so I knew that any water intrusion would be stopped from going layer to layer, even if I missed a spot with the poly and paint (I didn't miss any). I also used TB2 where I had to use screws & glue to attach items, in the interior, and the TB2 serves as well as PL did on the exterior, in sealing holes.
  • Concerning the different types of thinners you could use in the "mix":
    dancam wrote:I dont have anything called high voc paint thinner, so out of what i have what would be best for fast drying just to do 3/8 dia holes?
    Isopropyl alcohol 99%
    Mineral spirits,
    denatured alcohol
    Xylene
    Acetone
    Medium speed urethane grade reducer low voc (1.7pounds/gallon)
    Methyl ethyl ketone
    Gunwash (toluene,mek,methanol mix)
  • I suppose any of the above listed would work, but I suggested old-style paint thinner as my favorite. I used Kleen-Strip from Walmart & Home Depot, but they seem to be replacing it with lower-VOC substitutes (VOCs are just Volatile Organic Compounds, which are great solvents and smell great, too!). Oil-based paint always had high VOC content, and worked great until the tree-huggers started outlawing it for the environment's sake...I grew up before that era, and since everything from automotive lacquers to industrial solvent depended on high VOC content, I always depended on it. I haven't shopped for thinners or paint since I coated the trailer in 2012, so I presume the really good stuff has been replaced by now, so mineral spirits, turpentine, and acetone would be my choices if I couldn't buy the old-school thinner.
  • Since this thread is about sealing carriage bolts, I must mention a key factor in using PL adhesive in the bolt holes. I stated that the excess squeezed out, but some always remained under the bolt head, and under the nut on the opposite side. This polyurethane adhesive stays somewhat flexible, and acts as a "rubber" seal would act, in blocking water entry (silicone is a common sealant for this purpose,but I try to avoid using it where I want to paint...Pl can be painted over).
  • 2013 HHRv,"squareback/simple" TTT, semi-offroad? 4x8, 2000+ lbs travel weight
  • featuring: 3500 lb Dexter axle w/brakes & HD leaf spring system > riding on General Grabber 27x8.5-14LT tires, LED lighting inside, A/C & heat, AGM battery 12vdc, 110vac from extended run generator onboard or park power, Coleman dual-fuel stove & Northstar lantern
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Re: How to seal carriage bolts

Postby linuxmanxxx » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:30 am

working on it wrote:
  • I used carriage bolts all over my trailer, they are my primary fasteners, using them to bolt my trailer together, reserving use of screws to the interior only. I used carriage bolts (with either acorn nuts or nylocks) to attach the floor to frame, all wall attachment brackets, all door/hatch handles-locks-hinges...everywhere. I used 1/4"-20 (90% of fasteners used were stainless steel), except for the floor to frame (3/8"-16), and a 1/2"-13 for my spare tire attachment. All holes were thru 3/4" plywood; most holes were drilled prior to saturation with the "mix", during the initial stages of the build, so I carefully coated all threads with the same Loctite PL adhesive I used for all joints, using enough to guarantee no leaks, and I over-coated the exposed heads (exterior) with clear acrylic (UV resistant). Holes drilled later on, thru wood previously saturated with the mix and paint, got the same PL adhesive and acrylic. Underneath the trailer, I also used spray-on automotive undercoating, for extra sealing. By using PL directly on the threads of the bolts, I made sure that the inner grain of the plywood was completely sealed, and all excess spread under the carriage bolt head and under the nut, so as to be completely waterproof.
  • So far, after 4 years, no leaks! But, I still worry about the eight holes drilled in the roof, so I touch up the acrylic over the acorn nuts every year. Another thing, I have had problems when removing the stainless fasteners... they are soft, and break sometimes (I used a 1/4" impact for assembly, probably over-torquing them), so I am replacing them with std. carriage bolts, using the same sealing regimen.
  • stainless carriage bolts used for door install.jpg
    carriage bolt heads coated with "mix" & acrylic, threads sealed w/PL adhesive


A deviant person could trap you in with a padlock with that setup but a nice looking door.

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Re: How to seal carriage bolts

Postby working on it » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:35 pm

linuxmanxxx wrote:A deviant person could trap you in with a padlock with that setup but a nice looking door.
  • That's why I always padlock them open, with a door bar inside as my interior lock. I have been accused of devious behavior, outrageous behavior (as a younger guy), sometimes just being different for sh*ts and giggles, but (so far) not deviant...but I understand the deviant, malicious, or criminal mindset that would lock me inside. I chose these simple slide-latches because they offered simple prevention against such misconduct.
  • Slide bolt latch.png
    Slide bolt latch.png (82.93 KiB) Viewed 563 times
    each set of slide latches has its' own lock; always secured in one position or another
  • inner door locking system.png
    inner door locking system.png (264.18 KiB) Viewed 563 times
    once inside, I pull the door shut, then insert the bar (dowel) and snap it into the slots
  • 2013 HHRv,"squareback/simple" TTT, semi-offroad? 4x8, 2000+ lbs travel weight
  • featuring: 3500 lb Dexter axle w/brakes & HD leaf spring system > riding on General Grabber 27x8.5-14LT tires, LED lighting inside, A/C & heat, AGM battery 12vdc, 110vac from extended run generator onboard or park power, Coleman dual-fuel stove & Northstar lantern
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Re: How to seal carriage bolts

Postby dancam » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:23 pm

working on it wrote:
dancam wrote:
tony.latham wrote:
dancam wrote:Ok! How long after putting 'the mix' on the edges of the holes do i have to wait before bolting and calking it up? I bought some urethane today.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Almost immediately if you were not caulking. But if you are going to caulk, then I'd wait at least a day.

Poly has a fast cure time but when you thin it, it takes a long time for those thinners to evaporate and thus a much longer cure time.

Tony


Hmm, ok. I had read to use mineral spirits which take forever to evaporate. What about using a faster evaporating thinner like isopropyl alcohol?

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk
  • I tried several different types of thinner, experimenting to achieve the best combination of application time/flash time/cure time, when doing test pieces prior to actually using poly "mixes", and later thinned initial coats of my various paints (farm implement and reflective silo paints). My tests were done in 80-85 degree weather, slightly more humid than I liked, but showed that the poly "mix" worked best with the cheapest, highest VOC thinner, the farm implement paint best when thinned with the same, but the silo paint worked best when thinned with mineral spirits. The silo paint had high VOC already, so to prolong the drying time I needed mineral spirits to enable the reflective aluminum particles to spread evenly. I totally avoided the "odorless", milky-white paint thinner that I find in stores next to the good stuff...it's not even good enough to clean brushes with, IMHO.
  • Even so, when I poly'd the exterior, in direct sun and 106 degree heat, the two coats of 50/50 mix both dried within minutes, followed by a 100% coat of poly, dried after two hours, and another full coat, which dried overnight, after garaging it. I also painted the front, in a different manner, using only one coat each of "mix", full poly, 75% implement paint (dried in two hours), and 100% paint.
  • When I applied the silo paint on the front slope, it was drying slower than the other surfaces (due to mineral spirits on the first and third coats), so I applied the final coat in the garage, the next day, when I did the sides, top, put two more coats on the front,and finished the previously started hatch in the much cooler work area. The unattached doors, and the contrasting black edging (which sealed the exposed plywood edge grain), were done later that weekend (I spent 9 consecutive afternoons over at my friend's shop, 50 miles from home, but only did work on the trailer for half that time!).
  • Still, by painting most of the trailer in temperatures much higher than recommended, and using faster dissipating thinner for the "mix", I was able to apply all exterior coatings (and the inside of the hatch and doors), allowed them to dry, and never had to wait very long to continue the assembly of the trailer. I recommend using high VOC paint thinner over mineral spirits for the "mix", but use mineral spirits if paint properties require slower drying time.
  • 96776967779678096782 multiple coats of poly and paint done in one afternoon in 06 degree heat
  • 96832 finishing the paint job in an air-conditioned 40x60 shop, the next afternoon


Just reading over this again before I go seal my tongue box and I am wondering why you thinned the paint for the first coat?
I plan to use a water based exterior latex paint over the mix to match whats on the rest of the trailer, do I need a primer first? or is it fine to paint directly over the mix? Also how long did you wait after applying the final coat of the mix before starting to paint?
Thanks
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