The ultimate Off-Road suspension!

Lets captures all those good off road construction ideas here...

Moderator: Sonetpro

Postby Gerdo » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:44 pm

I build some shock mounts and mounted my shocks today. http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?t=11291 It's not going to turn it into an extreme off-roader but it should help on road and off.
User avatar
Gerdo
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1361
Images: 156
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:02 am
Location: Littleton, Colorado

Postby Jonkayak » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:03 pm

how about an eliptical sup. such as what is found at Blue Torch Fab (I think that is it, google it). They are wicked crazy. We wheeled with some of the guys once and the axels could be at 75 degree angles if not more while the body of the jeeps where still level. The idea is that it only requires two leaf srings mounted in a unique way. One is mounted paralle to the axel with a center pevit point and the other is cut in half and one half runs from the axel to the frame. Sounds strange but flexs like a slinky. Never road in one of the Jeeps but they can keep all four wheels on the ground and the body stays level.
Might work, might not.

Jon
1st tear drop sold. Second TTT will be glassed and look like........weekender maybe???????
Jonkayak
Teardrop Builder
 
Posts: 46
Images: 8
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:37 pm
Location: Jefferson (Atl) Ga.

Postby angib » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:22 am

Jonkayak wrote:how about an eliptical sup. such as what is found at Blue Torch Fab

Unnecessary complication - unless you feel that matching a particular look is more important than whether it is actually needed.

Trailers are supported at only three points - coupler plus two wheels - so axle articulation isn't required, though the coupler needs to be free to rotate if you want to accommodate extreme movements.

This is quite different from 4-wheelers which have four points of support, so they need some way of articulating those supports such that all four can stay on the ground.

However, if you wanted to build an off-road tandem axle trailer, then you would need some clever axles!

Andrew
User avatar
angib
5000 Club
5000 Club
 
Posts: 5783
Images: 231
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:04 pm
Location: (Olde) England
Top

Postby Wright » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:01 am

Ang, What did you think of a shocked trailing arm set up with 1/2 axles?? I like to get your opinion on that... http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?t=17438
Would that be worth the trouble over a leafspring set up? :noyes: seems to be what I've gotten so far...
:BE Wright

SEMPER FI
User avatar
Wright
*teardrop schemer
 
Posts: 298
Images: 15
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:33 pm
Location: Albion NY
Top

Postby angib » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:25 am

Wright wrote:Ang, What did you think of a shocked trailing arm set up with 1/2 axles??

I would guess that it's the best simple setup - there's no complex suspension with just two bushes each side, but you get full clearance in the middle of the chassis for tall rocks.

But, unless the trailer wheels are much smaller than the tow vehicle wheels, that just sounds to me like the trailer has got the clearance to straddle rocks that the tow vehicle can't, because it has got an axle and diff in the same place. So I don't see that it's a real benefit - unless the tow vehicle is a Unimog with drop-down ends on its axles and, if you've got one of those, you wouldn't be wasting your time asking my opinion!

Andrew
User avatar
angib
5000 Club
5000 Club
 
Posts: 5783
Images: 231
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:04 pm
Location: (Olde) England
Top

Postby Wright » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:13 pm

unless the tow vehicle is a Unimog with drop-down ends on its axles and, if you've got one of those, you wouldn't be wasting your time asking my opinion!


OH, I would even if I did... after a couple years of reading your posts... you've gained my respect... :thumbsup:
:BE Wright

SEMPER FI
User avatar
Wright
*teardrop schemer
 
Posts: 298
Images: 15
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:33 pm
Location: Albion NY
Top

Postby Jonkayak » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:55 pm

angib

I agree about the articulation on the trailer. I was just sugesting something diffrent and throwing the idea out there. It's an neat setup but not often needed.

Jon
1st tear drop sold. Second TTT will be glassed and look like........weekender maybe???????
Jonkayak
Teardrop Builder
 
Posts: 46
Images: 8
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:37 pm
Location: Jefferson (Atl) Ga.
Top

Postby jeepr » Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:31 pm

I have hauled trailers off road. Not campers, but utility trailers. I found they don't need articulation like a vehicle on 4 wheels. You need a good off-road designed hitch. Either a pindle hitch which is noisy, or one of the type that flexes internally. The most helpful thing for the trailer is ground clearance. So they need good heavy duty axles and tall tires if you want to drag one through the rough stuff. Where the technical suspension will help is at speed over rough roads and especially washboard.
Mike C.
User avatar
jeepr
The 300 Club
 
Posts: 422
Images: 38
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 7:57 pm
Location: Harrison Township, Michigan
Top

Postby highlandercj-7 » Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:22 am

Look to Adventure Trailers for the ultimate offroad trailer suspension.
Image
This is not cheap but if you can fabricate stuff it would be easy to clone.
highlandercj-7
Teardrop Inspector
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:34 am
Top

Postby Wright » Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:34 am

That's where I came up with the question, :D What I was seriously wondering was the most of the Off Road trailers I've seen are steel/aluminum, and reinforced, with putting a tear on a frame made for trails and rocky terrain, (and the inevitable evil that is washboard) aren't we taking a chance on dislodging or just down right bustin somethin, with a hard hit, or vibrations. With putting an (somewhat) articulated suspension underneath, will it be an appreciable reduction in the chance of that happening. I know that low and slow driving with the trailer is the best bet, but as Y'all know, mistakes happen, and washboard will wear down just about anything...

Wright
:BE Wright

SEMPER FI
User avatar
Wright
*teardrop schemer
 
Posts: 298
Images: 15
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:33 pm
Location: Albion NY
Top

Postby highlandercj-7 » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:37 pm

My guess it if you wanna prevent that from happening you need to go a lil overkill on your structure. When I fab stuff I worry about durability a lil more than weight. Maybe some sort of steel subframe?
Last edited by highlandercj-7 on Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
highlandercj-7
Teardrop Inspector
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:34 am
Top

Postby Wright » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:56 am

Yea but that goes right back to the weight issue, what do ya think'll weigh more a thicker wall structure or a steel subframing? and how the heck to build with a steel subframe? :thinking: I've drawn about a dozen pic's and still cant wrap my mind around it... Unless its a bolt-on sort of Quazi-roll cage that wraps the tear body... still thinking on it....
:BE Wright

SEMPER FI
User avatar
Wright
*teardrop schemer
 
Posts: 298
Images: 15
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:33 pm
Location: Albion NY
Top

Postby meach4x4 » Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:22 am

I am curious why articulation on an offroad trailer would not be a concern. Although the wheels are not driving, they still provide directional traction, helping keep your vehicle from slipping sideways. Also, when you have excellent articulation on a 4x4 it allows the vehicle to remain more level when moving across uneven ground. Also, if the axle can droop more, it will help support the trailer, instead of pulling it down, causing it to tip and lift the uphill wheel. I don't understand why you would rather have your wheel up in the air instead of down on the ground, with the trailer riding more level (averaging the high and low with it's articulation)

I think a good simple off road suspension would be a long supple leaf spring with a long shock to match it. Other than that, the AT Air bag suspension is proven to give great performance on a rough track.

Gil
St George, UT
2008 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
2007 Wells Cargo V force 5x8 (under construction)
User avatar
meach4x4
Teardrop Master
 
Posts: 175
Images: 126
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:20 pm
Location: Southern Utah
Top

Postby oldtamiyaphile » Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:32 am

Gill, check out Youtube, search for something like 'off road trailer', it will give you a very graphic representation of the physics involved. Basically, as soon as a trailer hits a rock (at a sensible speed), it tilts, and thus the weight on each wheel stays more or less equal, quite contrary to what happens to a 4 wheeled TV.

I suspect that for a trailer to actually articulate off road, you'd need springs so soft that it would be untowable at speed.
User avatar
oldtamiyaphile
Teardrop Builder
 
Posts: 41
Images: 7
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Western Australia
Top

Postby ntsqd » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:28 pm

EDIT: I guess that I'd best title this as my collection of thought on the topic. It is by no means complete, but I've hit the high spots.

My thinking is that traditional trailer springs are short and stiff to keep the ride height nearly unaffected by the loading and to eliminate the need for damping. That makes things simple and easy to design and to install.

It also results in broken parts if not just broken eggs when used on rough roads or off road.

There are some roll-steer characteristics of leaf springs with live axles that need paying attention to, but largely that is a function of the spring hangers and can be dealt with by buying all of the parts as a package.

Adding a damper to those short and stiff springs will help, but the basic problem is the springs being stiff. The Torflex axles are one potential solution to the rough ride of the short & stiff leaf springs. Reportedly those have issues with long distances on washboard roads. The failure mode is for the trailing arm to work it's way out of the mounting tube. That would be pretty hard to fix in the field. My TrailBlazer has this type of axle under it. It also has significant mileage on Baja's washboards, and a trip to Copper Canyon under it's belt (before my custodianship of the trailer). It has not had a failure of this (or any) type. The sole difference that I can see is that the man who built it's substantial replacement frame added dampers in the form of Rancho RS9000's. I'm not all that fond of Rancho shocks, but I see no reason to change something that is working.

My theory from afar is that washboard roads work this type of suspension hard and fast enough to generate some significant heat in the rubber. I suspect that this heat is great enough to break the vulcanizing bond, which allows the trailing arm to work it's way out of the mount tube. AFAIK this bond is all that holds the trailing arms in place. It must be pretty significant to not be a liability concern to the mfg. I have pondered adding a strap across the end of the trailing arm that would prohibit it from walking out should the de-vulcanization come to pass.

The problem with soft spring rates is that they vary ride height with loading. I only see two potential problems with this, cosmetics of the trailer following the tow rig, and the potential for the tire to rub on the fenders. The third potential problem, flopping over, to me is indicative of too soft of a spring rate.
This ride height vs. loading variance is what lead AT to use an air spring. With an air spring the ride height is easily adjusted. I think that they missed the boat in one option though. There are off the shelf electric & pneumatic switches that could make the trailer self-leveling, and then allow that feature to be turned off when desired or necessary.

Trailer suspension need only deal with bumps and not with articulation. Ever notice how easy it is for one leg of a 4 legged stool to be off by just enough that the stool wobbles? Doesn't take much. Three legged stools never have this problem. Articulation deals with that 4th point not being on the same plane as the other three points, but still allows for stability. Trailers only have the three points ( the toggle link between tandem tiress acts as an 'averager'), two tires and the coupler. They never wobble like a four legged stool with a short leg or like a tow rig with one tire in the air.

The advantage of "ITS" (Independent Trailer Suspension) over a live axle is the same thing that lead to independent use on passenger cars, one tire's bump does not influence the other tire. This is a ride quality bonus. I don't see going to the trouble of linkage and springs other than leaves, but keeping a live axle as being worth all of the trouble. For a one-off ITS build I would use a live axle and build the trailing arms to it. Once everything was built and finalized I would then cut the middle out of the axle tube itself and cap it. There need not be any fancy linkage geometry. Arguably there may be some small advantage in using some fancy geometry, but my estimate is that you're now talking about out there in the extreme 2% region. A simple single pivot axis trailing arm will do the job. Biggest concern is designing the trailing arm such that it can take the hard hits to the tire. There is a fair amount of leverage involved, the arm itself will need to be fairly rigid in design.

For those considering the Lock-n-Roll there is now a U.S. alternative called the "Max Coupler." http://www.adventuretrailers.com/coupler.html
An OZ option is the "Treg Hitch", but I know of no vendor in the US. Of the three I like it the best, mostly for it's urethane block that acts to absorb any impacts that the trailer might try to transmit to the tow rig.
Last edited by ntsqd on Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
thom

Where does that road go?
ntsqd
Teardrop Builder
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:09 pm
Location: So. CA
Top

PreviousNext

Return to Offroad Construction Secrets

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests