Off Road 5x10 (now 4x8) to match the jeep

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Re: Off Road 5x10 to match the jeep

Postby ekim952522000 » Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:18 pm

alaska teardrop wrote:....
I would recommend .040" or .050" aluminum for the exterior held on with the correct VHB tape & rivets.
An example:
....


Fred, is the reason for the VHB tape and the rivets mostly for piece of mind? My understanding was the VHB tape was supposed to be able to replace rivets or vice versa. Although I have no practical experience with VHB tape.

Thanks,

Mike
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Re: Off Road 5x10 to match the jeep

Postby working on it » Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:16 pm

ekim952522000 wrote:
working on it wrote:ekim952522000- Looking good, and you're building it for off-roading from scratch...not trying to modify it later, as I will be doing, as I get more free time-retirement-. Yours is 5x10, mine is 4x8, but similarly shaped.
offroadbuilds comparo.png
Even though I'm not contemplating "rockcrawling", ever, just soft-roading at most, one point of concern for me is the rear departure angle on my trailer (even after taller tires- to be added later-), is not great enough to yet cross gullies or even bar-ditches. Your design may face the same problem. Consider an up-angle at the rear of your frame; on a longer trailer (than mine) you can move the interior features up and away, just enough to create that angle...I may be limited to adding a skid plate and re-configuring my stabilizers to accomplish "crossing the bar"-ditch.


That is a good point and something I have considered, but really don't want to lose the storage below the counter in the galley. How tall is your trailer?
I used 4x8 plywood...the frame sits at 22.5" from the ground + 3" tall frame rails + 3/4" thick floor + the 48" tall sidewall + 3/4" roof = 65" (also add 1.5" for hatch rain shield) = 66.5" total height. The tires are ST205/75-14. I'll change the tires after I get a 4WD (match trailer to tow vehicle), probably ending up with 31" or 32"s. Interior height is 48".
  • 2013 HHRv,"squareback/simple" TTT, semi-offroad? 4x8, 2000+ lbs travel weight
  • featuring: 3500 lb Dexter axle w/brakes & HD leaf spring system > riding on General Grabber 27x8.5-14LT tires, LED lighting inside, A/C & heat, AGM battery 12vdc, 110vac from extended run generator onboard or park power, Coleman dual-fuel stove & Northstar lantern
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Re: Off Road 5x10 (now 4x8) to match the jeep

Postby alaska teardrop » Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:49 am

ekim952522000 wrote:
alaska teardrop wrote:....
I would recommend .040" or .050" aluminum for the exterior held on with the correct VHB tape & rivets.
An example:
....


Fred, is the reason for the VHB tape and the rivets mostly for piece of mind? My understanding was the VHB tape was supposed to be able to replace rivets or vice versa. Although I have no practical experience with VHB tape.

Thanks,

Mike

Mike,
Yes & no. In my unscientific experimenting with scrap aluminum, VHB tape, hammer & pry bar, I've found that it has good tensile strength but not so good shear strength.
I should point out that the goal for both the Northern Lite & Stacie's Glampette was building light weight. The tubing sizes & method of construction are different from your design in that the aluminum skin is an integral element of the structure (especially the N.L.), hence more rivets. Your floor & cabin framing will already be a strong structure & should require less riveting.
So, I'll describe how I would use the tape & rivets as if I were building your trailer and you take it from there.
Floor: Tape the one inch of perimeter on top of the frame rails inside of the vertical posts & tape the cross members. 46"x94"x.063" aluminum. Rivet the perimeter on 4" centers & cross members on 6" centers.
Side walls: Tape all of the 1" tubing & the top 1" of the side rail (the height of side would be 49" from top to bottom of side rail). 48"x96"x.040" aluminum (leaves 1" of exposed frame at the bottom). Rivet the perimeter on 4" centers. I would also extend the midlevel horizontal tube from the door all the way back to the rear & add a matching tube from door to front and rivet. No rivets needed around the door because the frame will clamp the sheet.
Roof: Tape all & rivet the perimeter only. .063" aluminum. 4" centers.
Lower front wall: Tape all & rivet the perimeter and center vertical tube. .063" aluminum. 4" centers.
Upper front wall, upper & lower rear walls: Tape & rivet perimeters. .040" aluminum.
Hatch: Tape only inside & out. .040" aluminum inside & out. It may need rivets to install latch mechanisms ect. Rivet heavy duty aluminum hinge. See N.L. tail gate & Glampette rear door for ideas.
I might also consider one sheet of aluminum for the roof from the top of the front wall to the top of the hatch with two bends.
Of all the VHB tape that 3M makes, 4919F is made for this application. If you can't find it, I could give you my supplier in Grand Rapids. One trick that I soon learned is to tape all the tubes, peal back a short length of the film and lay to the side to hold the sheet in place, offer up the aluminum sheet until you get it placed just right and then gently pull the film from between the pieces. If you peel all the tape & the piece is not just right, you may have to do it all over again! Remember also that the tape acts as a weather seal.
I'd use the 3/16" closed end aluminum structural rivets with steel mandrel of the appropriate length. See N.L. thread for details. After attaching the sheet with tape I'd then drill the rivet holes through the aluminum & steel at the same time while pressing the aluminum hard against the steel tube with one hand. This helps to avoid shavings between the two. Because this type of rivet is really hard to pull with a hand riveter, I'd suggest a pneumatic riveter.
Of course if you're willing to experiment, you could skip the rivets, see how it goes & add the rivets later if needed.
Fred
Northern Lite Traveler design: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=51991
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Re: Off Road 5x10 (now 4x8) to match the jeep

Postby ekim952522000 » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:02 am

alaska teardrop wrote:
ekim952522000 wrote:
alaska teardrop wrote:....
I would recommend .040" or .050" aluminum for the exterior held on with the correct VHB tape & rivets.
An example:
....


Fred, is the reason for the VHB tape and the rivets mostly for piece of mind? My understanding was the VHB tape was supposed to be able to replace rivets or vice versa. Although I have no practical experience with VHB tape.

Thanks,

Mike

Mike,
Yes & no. In my unscientific experimenting with scrap aluminum, VHB tape, hammer & pry bar, I've found that it has good tensile strength but not so good shear strength.
I should point out that the goal for both the Northern Lite & Stacie's Glampette was building light weight. The tubing sizes & method of construction are different from your design in that the aluminum skin is an integral element of the structure (especially the N.L.), hence more rivets. Your floor & cabin framing will already be a strong structure & should require less riveting.
So, I'll describe how I would use the tape & rivets as if I were building your trailer and you take it from there.
Floor: Tape the one inch of perimeter on top of the frame rails inside of the vertical posts & tape the cross members. 46"x94"x.063" aluminum. Rivet the perimeter on 4" centers & cross members on 6" centers.
Side walls: Tape all of the 1" tubing & the top 1" of the side rail (the height of side would be 49" from top to bottom of side rail). 48"x96"x.040" aluminum (leaves 1" of exposed frame at the bottom). Rivet the perimeter on 4" centers. I would also extend the midlevel horizontal tube from the door all the way back to the rear & add a matching tube from door to front and rivet. No rivets needed around the door because the frame will clamp the sheet.
Roof: Tape all & rivet the perimeter only. .063" aluminum. 4" centers.
Lower front wall: Tape all & rivet the perimeter and center vertical tube. .063" aluminum. 4" centers.
Upper front wall, upper & lower rear walls: Tape & rivet perimeters. .040" aluminum.
Hatch: Tape only inside & out. .040" aluminum inside & out. It may need rivets to install latch mechanisms ect. Rivet heavy duty aluminum hinge. See N.L. tail gate & Glampette rear door for ideas.
I might also consider one sheet of aluminum for the roof from the top of the front wall to the top of the hatch with two bends.
Of all the VHB tape that 3M makes, 4919F is made for this application. If you can't find it, I could give you my supplier in Grand Rapids. One trick that I soon learned is to tape all the tubes, peal back a short length of the film and lay to the side to hold the sheet in place, offer up the aluminum sheet until you get it placed just right and then gently pull the film from between the pieces. If you peel all the tape & the piece is not just right, you may have to do it all over again! Remember also that the tape acts as a weather seal.
I'd use the 3/16" closed end aluminum structural rivets with steel mandrel of the appropriate length. See N.L. thread for details. After attaching the sheet with tape I'd then drill the rivet holes through the aluminum & steel at the same time while pressing the aluminum hard against the steel tube with one hand. This helps to avoid shavings between the two. Because this type of rivet is really hard to pull with a hand riveter, I'd suggest a pneumatic riveter.
Of course if you're willing to experiment, you could skip the rivets, see how it goes & add the rivets later if needed.
Fred


Wow Fred, thank you SO much for taking the time to type that up, I will do what you said exactly, that should work perfectly, I really appreciate you taking the time to give me these detailed tips from your experience.

~Mike
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Re: Off Road 5x10 (now 4x8) to match the jeep

Postby alaska teardrop » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:43 am

You're welcome Mike. I appreciate that you appreciate the advice. After all, that is what this forum is about and I'm sure that you'll pass on your experiences.

A couple of more tips:
The tape is so thin that the surfaces need to be totally flat to avoid gaps in the tape & bumps in the aluminum. Where the tubing is welded the joints need to be perfectly flush & the weld ground smooth. And no welding splatter. At least, primer the steel. The surfaces should be wiped clean with isopropyl alcohol & clean rag or paper towel before applying the tape.

For a tight & strong seal use exactly the right drill size for the rivet. (i.e. 3/16" rivet = #11 drill bit).
I drill no more than 2-3 holes at a time & then rivet.

Also, when welding the framing, it is really important to take the time to make sure that everything perfectly true, straight & square. When it comes time to lay up the aluminum you'll be glad you did.
Fred
Northern Lite Traveler design: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=51991
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Re: Off Road 5x10 (now 4x8) to match the jeep

Postby ekim952522000 » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:22 pm

Great tips.

I was just looking through your build log, and it looks like you used a rubber trim attached at the corners for all your trim, if you were doing it again would you still do it this way or just use a "normal" aluminum trailer trim?

Also I was noticing your hatch in your pictures it looks like you just attached an angle around the edges on all sides and then put a rubber gasket on that for the hatch to close to? That is how I was planning on doing mine; and was curious how that worked out for you?

~Mike
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Re: Off Road 5x10 (now 4x8) to match the jeep

Postby alaska teardrop » Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:41 pm

Image
Mike,
Yes, I've used it on all my trailers. The Alaska TD above is nine years old & spent two years outside at temperatures down to -40* and up to 110* since. Still like new. If you use it, I'd put it on before painting. It can be masked or painted over. It has a 3M adhesive like VHB tape. Note that because the outside flange is short the side aluminum has to be right up flush with the top.
Image
Link: http://www.trimlok.com/prod/Lip-Guard/P ... rd_82.aspx
Unfortunately for the one time builder, Trim-Loc only sells JLGB direct in 250' lengths & I don't have much left. So, the thing to do is ask them for any of their customers who sell by the foot.

Image
Yes, it's 1-1/2"x1/8" angle attached with VHB & rivets. I'm very happy with it. No leaks & closes like a Mercedes door. The seal is on the jamb because the tailgate is used for cooking. On Stacie's back door the seal is on the door so that it doesn't get damaged by traffic. I'd do a hatch that way too.
Image

This is the seal: http://www.trimlok.com/prod/D-Profile/R ... ductID=122
X125BT only sold in 500' lengths. But I have plenty if you want some. Or
Grainger sells in 25' lengths: http://www.grainger.com/search/ecatalog ... stedPage=2

Another thought on the hatch. Have all your hardware in hand (latches/handles, hinge ect. before you complete welding so that you can add mounting tabs/brackets ect. Same with premade doors & window for making sure they'll fit right.

So, any new drawings? What suspension will you be using?

Fred
Last edited by alaska teardrop on Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Northern Lite Traveler design: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=51991
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Re: Off Road 5x10 (now 4x8) to match the jeep

Postby ekim952522000 » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:34 pm

Plan is to run a long leaf spring with shocks, don't want to use small trailer springs, because I expect it to be too bouncy. I had found a kit online I wanted to buy, but cannot find the page now I need to continue looking.

No new drawings for now I have the basic design finalized, I did make the couple of changes you suggested regarding the tubing. I have been calling around locating all of the basic materials so I can get started soon. =-)
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Re: Off Road 5x10 (now 4x8) to match the jeep

Postby ekim952522000 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:35 pm

Tidying up the final design drawings now, Found a local source of 55" x 120" .048 Aluminum, so am considering making it 4.5 x 9 for the final design kind of splitting the difference, I figure the 6" extra inches inside would be nice, could also make a nicer sized galley with an extra foot in the back, although I start to get worried about off road capabilites as it gets longer.

We will see, also waiting for the jeep to come back from the shop with it's new lift kit so I will know the final hitch height.
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Re: Off Road 5x10 (now 4x8) to match the jeep

Postby JCDriller » Thu May 26, 2016 8:27 pm

We're building similarish trailer, I'm really interested in watching your build progress. I'm going 5x10, plus the sides flare out, it's a little portly but I don't think I'll regret the extra space. Consider this a tag!
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