New to forum - well into an All Aluminum TTT Build

This is the place where you can introduce yourself, and include a photo if so desired.

Re: New to forum - well into an All Aluminum TTT Build

Postby ssuuki19 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:29 pm

dancam wrote:Hey, looks like a nice build!

Thanks, Dancam! Your pictures are awesome, if not a bit hilarious too what towing with a small hatch, exactly what I'm planning (although its heavily modified, and has airbags on the rear suspension, so I can dial in the ride height). I'm a long haul semi-truck driver, and am very familiar with the runs to Edmonton and Calgary from Vancouver. I've seen and am very familiar with both the tail addition on vans that clearly reduces drag, and the use of AirTabs (Edit:: or diy twin vortex generator) on the tractor and the trailer. Clearly these save mileage and pay themselves off, or truckers wouldn't use them, especially in Utah and other states where they go faaast! (Edit:: like 76mph) Were all mostly governed at 65mph here. Anywho, I think I will be collaborating with you too, seeing that you clearly have a lot of towing experience as well. Just wanted to say that the 'tail-cone' I'm building is directly inspired by the trailer tail pics you show, and I will be adding AirTabs to both the trailing edge of my hatchback and the trailing edge of the ttt to further encourage laminar air flow. Look them up if you aren't familiar with them, a fantastic simple idea based on creating small vortices of air. Also considering shortening the tongue to snug up the trailer closer to the hatch, but for now it will stay longer as I can fully jack-knife my setup now. That stretchy fabric idea.. what can I say I've never seen that before, but it makes intuitive sense.
Dancam, and everybody else for that matter, one of my biggest concerns was "is this trailer gonna do at least 55mph?" with the measly horsepower of a 4 cylinder hatch, because if it does, this will surely attract some attention on the road! After reading your comments today, seeing your pictures and then including my first test tow last night, I think it might even get to 65. Too bad I can't have access to a wind tunnel, I guess with a rainy and foggy day of the Pacific Northwest and a driver videotaping from behind I might be able to capture where the worst drag is.. something for me to think about anyways.
Last edited by ssuuki19 on Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ssuuki19
Teardrop Builder
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:18 am
Location: Vancouver, BC

New to forum - well into an All Aluminum TTT Build

Postby aggie79 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:56 pm

Is that a Festiva with racing stripes? We have a blue one (no stripes and no hitch).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Tom (& Linda)
For more on our Silver Beatle teardrop:
Build Thread

93503
User avatar
aggie79
Super Duper Lifetime Member
 
Posts: 4702
Images: 661
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:42 pm
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

New to forum - well into an All Aluminum TTT Build

Postby dancam » Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:14 pm

aggie79 wrote:Is that a Festiva with racing stripes? We have a blue one (no stripes and no hitch).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup! A '93 with 458,000km. They tow very well by the way. Amazing cars, i love them :)
ssuuki19 wrote:
dancam wrote:Hey, looks like a nice build!

Thanks, Dancam! Your pictures are awesome, if not a bit hilarious too what towing with a small hatch, exactly what I'm planning (although its heavily modified, and has airbags on the rear suspension, so I can dial in the ride height). I'm a long haul semi-truck driver, and am very familiar with the runs to Edmonton and Calgary from Vancouver. I've seen and am very familiar with both the tail addition on vans that clearly reduces drag, and the use of AirTabs on the tractor and the trailer. Clearly these save mileage and pay themselves off, or truckers wouldn't use them, especially in Utah and other states where they go faaast! Were all mostly governed at 65mph here. Anywho, I think I will be collaborating with you too, seeing that you clearly have a lot of towing experience as well. Just wanted to say that the 'tail-cone' I'm building is directly inspired by the trailer tail pics you show, and I will be adding AirTabs to both the trailing edge of my hatchback and the trailing edge of the ttt to further encourage laminar air flow. Look them up if you aren't familiar with them, a fantastic simple idea based on creating small vortices of air. Also considering shortening the tongue to snug up the trailer closer to the hatch, but for now it will stay longer as I can fully jack-knife my setup now. That stretchy fabric idea.. what can I say I've never seen that before, but it makes intuitive sense.
Dancam, and everybody else for that matter, one of my biggest concerns was "is this trailer gonna do at least 55mph?" with the measly horsepower of a 4 cylinder hatch, because if it does, this will surely attract some attention on the road! After reading your comments today, seeing your pictures and then including my first test tow last night, I think it might even get to 65. Too bad I can't have access to a wind tunnel, I guess with a rainy and foggy day of the Pacific Northwest and a driver videotaping from behind I might be able to capture where the worst drag is.. something for me to think about anyways.


Can you do 55mph? Well am i missing another thread? All i see is the one photo of the trailer in the first post and you haven't mentioned what the tv is :). Your trailer looks very tall and narrow meaning tippy and hard to handle in crosswinds. But its really hard to tell from one photo. Got any better pictures and what are you towing it with?
I dont haul for a living but i did learn quite a bit while working on a farm as far as how to drive overloaded trucks, what you can and cant do and what happens when you get loaded wrong...
I have towed a lot with this festiva and an '02 civic though. Bigger isnt always better. That u-haul i picked up with the civic, towed it 50km home mostly on the flat. Oil temps went way way up and it overheated and i believe blew a small hole in the head gasket just as i got home. Towed terribly too. Hooked up the festiva and went a couple hundred km to the biggest hills around and brought it back to u-haul with the festiva. Never overheated, oil temps stayed fine, trans and brakes were good. The civic had very slightly more power while pulling it but barely, i still used 4th on the flats a bunch. I believe the festiva also stops faster than the civic with that trailer. Civic is 117hp, festiva was 63 around 26years and 480k ago. Civic has good tires, brand new drums, shoes, rotors, pads- festiva has old stuff and old skinny 12in 145width tires. Also a radiator smaller than some motorbikes.
I had it up to 120km/hr and on an empty highway tried swinging it at 100km/hr and it stayed straight, didnt throw me around. Festiva pulls better than the civic with smaller trailers before this too. Civic 20mpg and festiva 31mpg also. At 20mpg i may as well use a truck. All that to say bigger isnt always better with tow vehicles. We should talk sometime, sounds like you know more about aero than i do. Im going crazy right now trying to get my trailer done. Was supposed to be wrapping up by now and im not even half way done. Id like to talk about what you did to your tv too. I think i have mine figured out, but more ideas are always good. Gonna spend 7months stright working on it to get it ready to tow a 1700 pound trailer (max) across canada 32,000km with 4 people in the car.

Heres my question and planning thread that describes what im trying to do
First timer build and questions
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?t=66244

And this is my build thread, but not much about the plans in there. Pop-up foamie for Cross-Canada trip
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?t=66816

Image
dancam
Teardrop Master
 
Posts: 192
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:27 am
Location: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Top

Re: New to forum - well into an All Aluminum TTT Build

Postby ssuuki19 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:52 pm

alaska teardrop wrote:Thank you Mark. Glad to see that you'll be adding those two extra tubes to the tongue. The full length center tube is a good idea, however, welding it at the most critical point where the tongue meets the first cross member sets up the potential of stress cracking. A single tongue is especially vulnerable to fatigue because there is not only vertical stress but also horizontal stress that is not really a concern with double or triple tongues. Here is a post by Andrew that explains aluminum fatigue: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=65130&p=1157563&hilit=aluminum+fatigue#p1157563

And another about tongue strength: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=66458&start=45 (13th post down)

Fred

Hi Roly

Fred, I just got a chance to go over those links today, thanks again! Typical 20/20 hindsight - had I perhaps studied/joined this forum before the frame build, your input would have resulted in a better design. Well, in a way I am doing a mono-coque approach for the cabin, so that's a plus. I wasn't aware about how it actually would have been better to only 'bolt' the three tongue tubes to the frame and skip the welds. Would have saved time too!
Going back to that sketch for the Northern Lite frame and that build thread of yours, I'd like to share with you the concept drawing for my frame which I did in Sketchup. If you are interested in the file, (Edit::2bposted in the right section). This was my approach to making a really beefy aluminum frame in 'design space'. In reality, I skipped a lot of the re-inforcements, shooting for lowest weight, and didn't run the A tongue tubes to, or past the axle. Having said that since the frame is not permanently attached to the cabin, I guess there's one small advantage in that I can modify it in the future before, and after it fails. In fact, perhaps in a science way it will be interesting to see exactly where it fails so long as I document it for everyone. It could corrobarate what was discussed in those two threads - it appears that you folks were discussing this very stuff in August too... weird co-incidence. Here's the concept:
tnttt_03.jpg
tnttt_03.jpg (80.41 KiB) Viewed 795 times

As you can see I think in math-space I was doing a much better approach, going really beefy with the cross braces, and doubling up the main tongue thickness, running the A tongue tubes all the way back to the end of the frame and doubling up on the cross braces. This design does not have the additional bracing to the axle tube mounts, because I was just making this up in my mind as I went, but they could be added. My design approach to this frame concept was to envision someone 'backing the trailer up at rolling speed directly into a large tree. And use a lot of triangles.
Last edited by ssuuki19 on Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
ssuuki19
Teardrop Builder
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:18 am
Location: Vancouver, BC
Top

Re: New to forum - well into an All Aluminum TTT Build

Postby alaska teardrop » Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:59 pm

Mark, A build thread sounds like a good plan with pictures from your gallery, dimensions & aluminum specifications.

Here is a thread with more information about designing an aluminum chassis:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=61645&hilit=bryant
Note that the tongue length is an important part of the tongue strength formula & that you can essentially shorten the tongue by building a tongue box that is an integral part of the cabin.

I use a full axle because to is a structural member of the chassis design. I can specify the load range & start angle and order with electric brakes. The axle cross beam is up tight to the cabin floor, so there is only a 2" loss of center clearance. For a given 'start angle' the ride height is the same for both full & half axles. The full axle is aligned. The half axles require alignment & maintaining that alignment.

No experience with surge brakes, but I've read that they are troublesome.

Hope the link is another helpful rabbit hole. You've obviously spending a fair amount of time & money on your project. It needs a good foundation.

Fred
Northern Lite Traveler design: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=51991
User avatar
alaska teardrop
Platinum Donating Member
 
Posts: 1051
Images: 172
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:41 pm
Location: Greenville, Michigan
Top

Re: New to forum - well into an All Aluminum TTT Build

Postby ssuuki19 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:14 pm

Dancam, just took a look at your build thread, chock full of pictures!... ok, ok, I'm going to take some time and get all my pictures standardized for this forum, andready to post. What size and quality are you using in your build thread? My first picture, tnttt_01 has scroll bars on it, and my third tiff picture of the frame concept tnttt_03 isn't showing properly - pretty sure its too big and needs to be cropped.

Yes, Dancam, and everyone else, this trailer has a higher profile somewhat like a Sprinter is how I'd describe it. And yes, this means sway and cross winds, are a huge design concern. To mitigate this I went with quality rims and automotive rubber, widened the stance a bit (Edit:: this means the tire track of the trailer was moved to new road, just outside the car tires, with a bit of overlap on turning), and the third and most important point is about centre of gravity. If you are familiar with the e-track system that is used in all delivery vans, straight trucks, 48ft & 53ft trailers, well that's whats going to be in the interior of my trailer. Everything, and I mean everything, added to the bare bones insulated shell will be clipping onto horizontal and vertical lengths of e-track. (EDIT:: this is actually going to be aluminum L-track) Advantages: for one the trailer now has a multitude of design layouts depending on whether I put my SUP in in and gear, or whether its a two person booth/sleeper. The point is that when travelling, ALL the high sided cargo (shelves, bins, cabinets, coolers, etc.) in the trailer will be lowered down to the floor settings on the e-track (Edit:: L-track), which will lower the center of gravity. I know it does look a bit odd being so tall that a 6'2 person can stand in the doorway area, and that's a large cross sectional area for sway but I am confident that by using this e-track system and lowering all the cargo to the floor in conjunctions with the stance and quality rubber (185/55/r14), it will handle just fine. Also, I am installing an RV Pro Sway control kit (same as Reese) on my setup - these are typically designed for much larger, heavier trailers, but it will work fine just the same, and will be used for added safety and stability, given that in gusts my tv will be blown around a lot.
Now, Dancam, since you showed off your gorgeous Festiva (used to drive one in university, called the Blue Cyclone), perhaps folks won't balk at my mention of using an '06 1.6L 5spd manual Suzuki Swift+ Hatchback, aka Chevy Aveo clone. Now before everyone gets all hokey dokey, thinking I this is nuts, take Dancams words into perspective - its not as nuts as one thinks... as I said the car is far from stock - for horsepower, the intake and exhaust have been uncorked, it has smaller circumference tires (55 series, resulting in about 6% more torque) an under-drive pulley, coil-overs and strut tower bar on the front, lowering springs, sway bar, munroe shocks, and firestone coil-rite airbags on the rear, and a curt hitch and wiring kit designed for the Aveo. Lastly I should point out for experienced towers that the hitch ball is very close to the rear axle on the Aveo (only the hatchback, one could never do this with the sedan imho), a big bonus, and seeing that there is 1600lbs on the front axle and 1000lbs on the rear axle, its actually setup weight wise to be a tow vehicle candidate in my humble opinion. When I took my trailer out for a test tow (with the cabin mounted, pics to follow soon..) several days ago, I took it up to 70kms/hr and it cruised just fine, don't even see the trailer in my side view mirrors (!) as its 54" wide. Its a prototype, what can I say I had to size to the car. Anywho, I could barely tell it was there, and in fact just like with semi-trucks, the car actually felt more solid (!) towing the trailer than it does without it. Go figure, I was honestly impressed, thought I'd have to rev the snot out of it, which by the way it does just fine, all the way up to red line. For ten years. I still believe the older Aveo motor is severely under-estimated in its power and longevity.

tnttt_04.jpg
tnttt_04.jpg (308.27 KiB) Viewed 836 times

There is a section of Hwy 1 between Calgary and Lake Louise that gets the worst, nastiest gustiest cross-winds. In the winter as many travellers on this forum likely know this area is known for chinooks and big cross-winds... well I've driven this section with 53ft trailers, and lemme tell you, its pretty powerful, it blows the trailer back and forth and so the tractor has to keep the sway in line. So that section of highway will be what I'd like to test my trailer on later on in the build, but hopefully before next spring.
Ok, I promise, next post will have lots of pictures
Last edited by ssuuki19 on Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:28 pm, edited 8 times in total.
ssuuki19
Teardrop Builder
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:18 am
Location: Vancouver, BC
Top

Re: New to forum - well into an All Aluminum TTT Build

Postby ssuuki19 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:45 pm

alaska teardrop wrote:Mark, A build thread sounds like a good plan with pictures from your gallery, dimensions & aluminum specifications.
... ...
Hope the link is another helpful rabbit hole. You've obviously spending a fair amount of time & money on your project. It needs a good foundation.
Fred


Agreed. I've spent more than a fair amount of time thinking about this project... 8 months of truckin' back and forth to Southern California and Arizona from British Columbia 'gives one many, many, many, many, many hours to ponder'. And yes there is cost for it all, but in all sincerity, I am saving a lot of money by tackling this project myself, on account of my free labor. Oops, I just realized this post is supposed to have pics, a build thread, aluminum specs, and a gallery? Ok I'm on it... gimme a day or so.

Just to pick your brain, Fred - if I rivet-skin the bottom of the floor of the cabin with the same 16 gauge 5052 aluminium to complete the shell, what would you suggest I do the interior floor with? I'm asking because one of the problems I'm experiencing with this first build is lack of foresight on lead times on parts, and that has stalled me several times already, so I have to get this flooring ordered asap. Because after that, I have decided to go 2" of sprayed on XPS foam insulation - 1" to fill the entire aluminum square tube frame layer, and an additional 1" of full foam envelope to cover all those thermal bridges. I'm shooting for an overall heat transfer co-efficient of R10-R12. Probably won't hit that target, but I dare to dream - perhaps could do three inches at the top parts of the trailer, and maybe with a mylar layer in-between the two foam layers... I think its a doable, aggressive, heat transfer goal.
Last edited by ssuuki19 on Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
ssuuki19
Teardrop Builder
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:18 am
Location: Vancouver, BC
Top

Re: New to forum - well into an All Aluminum TTT Build

Postby ssuuki19 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:54 pm

Ummm, its 16 gauge aluminum, frankly, I just miss the most obvious mistakes, just like math. Approximately 0.051 of an inch thick 5052 aluminum for the skin, and approximately 0.125 of an inch thick 1" and 2" square tube 6061 aluminium for the frame. I corrected ^ the above errors.
Last edited by ssuuki19 on Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ssuuki19
Teardrop Builder
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:18 am
Location: Vancouver, BC
Top

Re: New to forum - well into an All Aluminum TTT Build

Postby ssuuki19 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:28 pm

Since this is the build thread, this would be one of the best pictures:
tnttt_09.jpg
tnttt_09.jpg (37.31 KiB) Viewed 419 times
ssuuki19
Teardrop Builder
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:18 am
Location: Vancouver, BC
Top

Re: New to forum - well into an All Aluminum TTT Build

Postby ssuuki19 » Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:31 pm

And I found this older picture today: (i was thinking to beef up the tongue)
tnttt_10.jpg
tnttt_10.jpg (163.76 KiB) Viewed 387 times
ssuuki19
Teardrop Builder
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:18 am
Location: Vancouver, BC
Top

Re: New to forum - well into an All Aluminum TTT Build

Postby ssuuki19 » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:47 pm

this thread continues http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=67326, its a build thread from hereon in
ssuuki19
Teardrop Builder
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:18 am
Location: Vancouver, BC
Top

Re: New to forum - well into an All Aluminum TTT Build

Postby ssuuki19 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:28 pm

alaska teardrop wrote:I can specify the load range & start angle and order with electric brakes.


This type of research is directed towards Fred because I am really curious about brakes since I really don't know much about electric brakes.
First off ok theres a 12V brake signal, but what give the 'fly by wire brakes' signal to the trailer... maybe I'm missing something here...
Now heres, the thing I observe my trailer since its using high offset automotive wheels made to fit calipers within..
maybe I can retrofit small brakes into the volume contained with the 14" aluminium wheels is true
ssuuki19
Teardrop Builder
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:18 am
Location: Vancouver, BC
Top

Re: New to forum - well into an All Aluminum TTT Build

Postby dancam » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:46 am

ssuuki19 wrote:
alaska teardrop wrote:I can specify the load range & start angle and order with electric brakes.


This type of research is directed towards Fred because I am really curious about brakes since I really don't know much about electric brakes.
First off ok theres a 12V brake signal, but what give the 'fly by wire brakes' signal to the trailer... maybe I'm missing something here...
Now heres, the thing I observe my trailer since its using high offset automotive wheels made to fit calipers within..
maybe I can retrofit small brakes into the volume contained with the 14" aluminium wheels is true

Not 100% sure what your asking but you can just buy axles with electric brakes and their controlled by the electric brake controller in the tow vehicle.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk
dancam
Teardrop Master
 
Posts: 192
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:27 am
Location: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Top

Re: New to forum - well into an All Aluminum TTT Build

Postby alaska teardrop » Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:46 pm

Just to pick your brain, Fred - if I rivet-skin the bottom of the floor of the cabin with the same 16 gauge 5052 aluminium to complete the shell, what would you suggest I do the interior floor with? I'm asking because one of the problems I'm experiencing with this first build is lack of foresight on lead times on parts, and that has stalled me several times already, so I have to get this flooring ordered asap. Because after that, I have decided to go 2" of sprayed on XPS foam insulation - 1" to fill the entire aluminum square tube frame layer, and an additional 1" of full foam envelope to cover all those thermal bridges.


If you Rivet the aluminum sheet on the underside of the cabin floor, You could fill in between the 1" tubing with spray in foam or 1" XPS board cut to fit. And then just lay in full sheets of 2" high density XPS. For flooring I've used lock together manufactured flooring, 1/4" oak plywood, and the lay flat/no glue vinyl. Guess that would depend on the expected use. A couple of pictures in my album.
Northern Lite Traveler design: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=51991
User avatar
alaska teardrop
Platinum Donating Member
 
Posts: 1051
Images: 172
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:41 pm
Location: Greenville, Michigan
Top

Re: New to forum - well into an All Aluminum TTT Build

Postby alaska teardrop » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:03 pm

ssuuki19 wrote:
alaska teardrop wrote:I can specify the load range & start angle and order with electric brakes.


This type of research is directed towards Fred because I am really curious about brakes since I really don't know much about electric brakes.
First off ok theres a 12V brake signal, but what give the 'fly by wire brakes' signal to the trailer... maybe I'm missing something here...
Now heres, the thing I observe my trailer since its using high offset automotive wheels made to fit calipers within..
maybe I can retrofit small brakes into the volume contained with the 14" aluminium wheels is true


Two links that should be helpful if you decide on a full torsion axle:

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=7214

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14125

The brakes have two wires on each side. Two ground wires to the car & two wires to the controller which you can probably buy at an auto parts store. Also a search on this forum about controllers.
Northern Lite Traveler design: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=51991
User avatar
alaska teardrop
Platinum Donating Member
 
Posts: 1051
Images: 172
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:41 pm
Location: Greenville, Michigan
Top

Previous

Return to Newbies, Introduce yourselves

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest