1st build

[flboy]

Thanks for the heads up Doug! Sounds like a good fix for it too.
Well, I ran the ac in the near 90 temps we had today. Only got to 78 inside... I haven't yet insulated the walls,(I know, I know...) but I just had to see. I did cover the obvious areas that would pull in warm air, just wondering if there is anything else to try before I start tearing it apart... I really want to start building cabinets and stuff!
Also figured out that the manual vent the factory installed is kind of a cheap piece of crap.

The insulation is so important to the build and is not something that can be done easily after the fact. Sounds like you are making the right choice to 'bite the bullet now' and do it. I live in a a hot place and there is no way the 6000 BTU AC I have could touch the heat in my 18*7 Vnose without the insulation. Ditto for the cool weather and my Mr. Buddy heater.

I know the feeling on the itch to get the cabinets and stuff in because then it starts taking on the look of a camper. It is all the foundational work for me that took the most time.. but just hang in there. You have to get that right first and move in the correct order. Good for you to tackle this yourself!

[McDave]

Thanks for the heads up Doug! Sounds like a good fix for it too.
Well, I ran the ac in the near 90 temps we had today. Only got to 78 inside... I haven't yet insulated the walls,(I know, I know...) but I just had to see. I did cover the obvious areas that would pull in warm air, just wondering if there is anything else to try before I start tearing it apart... I really want to start building cabinets and stuff!
Also figured out that the manual vent the factory installed is kind of a cheap piece of crap.

OK, Let's try this one more time. Paint that roof with Henry 587. First order of business. Get it done. Makes a huge difference. $50.00 and a half day of paint/prep work. Dollar for dollar the best upgrade I have made so far. Also, Don is right about the insulation. You are running at the minimum capacity required with that AC to begin with. A big leaky tin box in the sun isn't going to be easy to cool, so you have to help it all you can. It is very important to do a professional job on the insulation install. You can only get so much in there and it's well below the R-factor you might see in houses so you need to make the most of what you do have. 1" Poly Iso foil faced with a 1/4" gap between trailer skin and insulation, spray foam big gaps and tape all the seams. That'll get you about R-10, maybe. If you double up on roof that makes a big difference as well, if you have the height to spare. It will be easier to keep the trailer cool than to try to cool it off when it's hot. So when it cools off at night/early am turn on A/C and set for a comfortable temp and just let it cycle as needed.
Those torx looking screws are double squares. Get a #2 square driver bit. (Get a few of them) No more stripping and you can put it in your drill and speed things up considerably.

McDave

[kathy chorjel]

Thanks Cindy, Don, and McDave. I have never even heard of double square screw heads! Previously I took one to the local ACE when having trouble with removal and the gent there just thought it was stripped out also... Glad to learn so many things here.
Don, I am in east central Fl, so the heat and humidity are a huge factor. I really knew deep down I would have to insulate, just trying to talk myself into it I guess. The factory put in the bubble wrap insulation in the ceiling. I am thinking it won't be enough, but will probably use McDaves suggestion on the paint and try to not tear that up too. I figure to try it out before putting all the trim back on after insulating the sides. Do I need to do the ramp also? I saw on that you did on your build and am wondering if it will make that much of a difference, it seems pretty sturdy. Thanks again all!

[McDave]

Hey Kathy,
Cheer up Kiddo, It's not all bad news. It's a good news/bad news deal. So, what do ya' want first? The bad news? OK..
Well, I hope you didn't pay a ton of cash for the bubble insulation, It's probably not going to be very effective as true insulation unless the factory did a super job installing it. It would have to be a air tight sheet with an air gap between roof and bubbles and sealed all around to stop air/vapor infiltration. That's the bad news. The good news is that it will "insulate" your head from the roof and prevent a nasty burn. So you got that going for ya'..
See? Good news/bad news. Let's continue, shall we? OK Good news first this time. You really don't have to do all this insulating and painting and such, and since you are in Fla. heating is not a big deal, so all you need is a big ol' honkin' 20,000btu Air Conditioner. Gonna need 220v power for that one soooo... big ol' honkin' 6,000watt+ generator. That's the good news. The bad news is those two items are worth about as much as your new trailer. Oh, and they are both pretty noisy. And, you'll have to feed that genny quite a bit of gas, but probably not much more than you home utility bill....
You see where I'm going with this, right? It's like REO Speedwagon said, "You Get What You Play For". Remember REO? Ridin' the storm out.... Good times. Anywhooooo... You can look at this project as just a bunch of work, or you can see it as an opportunity, to show off your smarts and skills and develop new ones. And in the end you will have something special that you created that is unique and different than anyone elses. Custom made by you, for you. So, all the options are out there, you can take it as far as you want. See? More good news.
Have a great weekend,

McDave

[kathy chorjel]

Hey Kathy,
Cheer up Kiddo, It's not all bad news. It's a good news/bad news deal. So, what do ya' want first? The bad news? OK..
Well, I hope you didn't pay a ton of cash for the bubble insulation, It's probably not going to be very effective as true insulation unless the factory did a super job installing it. It would have to be a air tight sheet with an air gap between roof and bubbles and sealed all around to stop air/vapor infiltration. That's the bad news. The good news is that it will "insulate" your head from the roof and prevent a nasty burn. So you got that going for ya'..
See? Good news/bad news. Let's continue, shall we? OK Good news first this time. You really don't have to do all this insulating and painting and such, and since you are in Fla. heating is not a big deal, so all you need is a big ol' honkin' 20,000btu Air Conditioner. Gonna need 220v power for that one soooo... big ol' honkin' 6,000watt+ generator. That's the good news. The bad news is those two items are worth about as much as your new trailer. Oh, and they are both pretty noisy. And, you'll have to feed that genny quite a bit of gas, but probably not much more than you home utility bill....
You see where I'm going with this, right? It's like REO Speedwagon said, "You Get What You Play For". Remember REO? Ridin' the storm out.... Good times. Anywhooooo... You can look at this project as just a bunch of work, or you can see it as an opportunity, to show off your smarts and skills and develop new ones. And in the end you will have something special that you created that is unique and different than anyone elses. Custom made by you, for you. So, all the options are out there, you can take it as far as you want. See? More good news.
Have a great weekend,

McDave

Alright McDave, I am all about dancing in the rain. I really do enjoy doing these types of things, it just kinda breaks my heart to tear up such a purdy trailer... not to mention that it is already mid 90's here. Planning to get up early and get started before the heat sets in. I want to get this thing insulated to be on the road early July. If that gets done, the other fun stuff can wait. I got a definite "NO" on ever sleeping in a tent again.

[flboy]

Thanks Cindy, Don, and McDave. I have never even heard of double square screw heads! Previously I took one to the local ACE when having trouble with removal and the gent there just thought it was stripped out also... Glad to learn so many things here.
Don, I am in east central Fl, so the heat and humidity are a huge factor. I really knew deep down I would have to insulate, just trying to talk myself into it I guess. The factory put in the bubble wrap insulation in the ceiling. I am thinking it won't be enough, but will probably use McDaves suggestion on the paint and try to not tear that up too. I figure to try it out before putting all the trim back on after insulating the sides. Do I need to do the ramp also? I saw on that you did on your build and am wondering if it will make that much of a difference, it seems pretty sturdy. Thanks again all!

I am in East Central FL also.... same environment.

The ramp is also the rear wall and needs to be insulated. This was my logic when I insulated: White trailer helps... Each foam panel taped and spray foamed (where needed) to prevent thermal bypass.

1) Double in the ceiling as it get's the direct sun. The front half of the roof is covered with solar panels so that keeps the heat off. I am going to get the Henry roof coating for the back half later this summer.
2) 3/4 inch thick foam panels in the walls with 1/4 inch air gap. Park facing south on the awning side and that shades one side most of the day. The opposite side mostly shades itself.
3) Double insulation (1 and 1/2 inches) in the ramp because there was room and it will get a lot of sun also.

With this insulation in a 7*18 with 2ft V, I can cool adequately with a 6000 BTU unit in the summer and run off a small Honda 2000 Watt generator (or solar and batteries for 4 to 5 hours via the inverter) which is nice for several reasons which you can imagine. Good insulation makes that possible. Of course, I could park in the shade to help, but I depend on the sun for power. Another thing to note... even without AC, I can run the Maxxair fan and the inside of the trailer gets no hotter than the outside air temperature. Heat does not build up any faster than the fan can evacuate it and the interior walls do not radiate significant heat.

The bubble wrap in the ceiling probably is not going to cut it for Florida. If you are going to be in campgrounds with power, you could get a 13,500 BTU ceiling AC . That will cool it regardless...

Sorry.. not good news... but it is the reality. I think you will regret it later if you do not get the insulation in now... these trailers can be ovens in the sun due partly to the aluminum skin.

[hankaye]

flboy, Howdy;

I read that you have a 1/4" air gap between your insulation and ... which?
Inside wall material or outside skin? If exterior how do you achieve the space?

hank

[kathy chorjel]

flboy, Howdy;

I read that you have a 1/4" air gap between your insulation and ... which?
Inside wall material or outside skin? If exterior how do you achieve the space?

hank

I was wondering that also Hank.
This is behind the plywood and I assume it is to support the fenders. Is it safe to remove so that I can insulate this area, or do I need to cut out for these ? The fenders are not actually attached to them at all.

[McDave]

I zoomed in on that e-track. Looks like they did tack that in. I'm a little surprised. I have not seen that type of wood structure for the fender backing plate before, but looks like it would work well. Just insulate around it and fill in if possible.
I just used some strips of 1/8" panelling scrap along the studs to space the polyiso from the exterior skin. I also used some "aluminized" bubble pool cover that I had a 18'x36' piece of, since I had just replaced the pool cover. It was still in great shape as the pool is indoors and I figured it would add something to the overall R-value. The depth of the studs was actually 1.25" so the air gap was perfect to make 1" poly flush w/studs.



These pics are not great, but you get the idea.

McDave

[kathy chorjel]

Getting started on the insulation. Using 3/4 inch with the previously recommended 1/4 inch gap. I found this precut to 14" which will fit 2/3 of the area.(R rated at 4.17)
Also have cut some 1/4" siding to go behind the e track so no gap there. Can I use the spray foam over the wiring or avoid "locking" it up and use tape?

[ffemtp]

Getting started on the insulation. Using 3/4 inch with the previously recommended 1/4 inch gap. I found this precut to 14" which will fit 2/3 of the area.(R rated at 4.17)
Also have cut some 1/4" siding to go behind the e track so no gap there. Can I use the spray foam over the wiring or avoid "locking" it up and use tape?

It might be cheaper for you to purchase the 1" insulation in 4'x8' sheets. You can measure and cut them easily to whatever you need. This will be especially handy in corners and near the doors. I used an old 7 1/4" wood blade turned backwards after marking the cut line with a Sharpie. It cut like "hot knife thru butter".

I went with 1" insulation because my ribs were 1" thick. I air-gapped my roof and double insulated it with 1" insulation foam board, a 1/4" furring strip, 1/2" reflective foam board, then 1/4" Luan. I ran my wire beside my foam against the ribs. But then again, my goal was NOT to make my CTC air-tight but to insulate it for better temperature control. The real test comes very soon because my trailer is skinned in black!

[kathy chorjel]

Getting started on the insulation. Using 3/4 inch with the previously recommended 1/4 inch gap. I found this precut to 14" which will fit 2/3 of the area.(R rated at 4.17)
Also have cut some 1/4" siding to go behind the e track so no gap there. Can I use the spray foam over the wiring or avoid "locking" it up and use tape?

It might be cheaper for you to purchase the 1" insulation in 4'x8' sheets. You can measure and cut them easily to whatever you need. This will be especially handy in corners and near the doors. I used an old 7 1/4" wood blade turned backwards after marking the cut line with a Sharpie. It cut like "hot knife thru butter".

I went with 1" insulation because my ribs were 1" thick. I air-gapped my roof and double insulated it with 1" insulation foam board, a 1/4" furring strip, 1/2" reflective foam board, then 1/4" Luan. I ran my wire beside my foam against the ribs. But then again, my goal was NOT to make my CTC air-tight but to insulate it for better temperature control. The real test comes very soon because my trailer is skinned in black!

If I understand, part of the gap is to deal with moisture in addition to added insulation, something we have plenty of here in FL. My ribs are also 1", the product I am using is the only 3/4 available at my local big box. I did want the foil backed, although I'm really not sure how necessary it is.
Thanks for your input, best wishes on your black box!

[kathy chorjel]

Todays progress. Hope things start going a little faster now...

[McDave]

Oh yea, you got her on the run now. That looks good. But where is all the debris? I'm still picking up pieces of insulation almost a year later!
Here's my thoughts on the air gap issue. One of the best insulators to be found is static air. Double glazed windows originally used this, and later used Argon gas, as it is inert. If you have the ability to trap some air between the outer siding and the insulation, it acts as the first layer of insulation. But it needs to be as static as possible to be effective, that is to say you don't want to be exchanging the air. Therefore, I can't see much advantage as far as moisture concerns, but the tighter the cabin is, the less moisture the AC will need to remove. That can only help if you are under cooled.
Now, I got my PHD in Thermal Dynamics from a correspondence course, but I believe my theory is sound.

McDave

[kathy chorjel]

Oh yea, you got her on the run now. That looks good. But where is all the debris? I'm still picking up pieces of insulation almost a year later!
Here's my thoughts on the air gap issue. One of the best insulators to be found is static air. Double glazed windows originally used this, and later used Argon gas, as it is inert. If you have the ability to trap some air between the outer siding and the insulation, it acts as the first layer of insulation. But it needs to be as static as possible to be effective, that is to say you don't want to be exchanging the air. Therefore, I can't see much advantage as far as moisture concerns, but the tighter the cabin is, the less moisture the AC will need to remove. That can only help if you are under cooled.
Now, I got my PHD in Thermal Dynamics from a correspondence course, but I believe my theory is sound.

McDave

Thanks McDave, just about everyone knows more about heating and cooling than I do, so I am grateful for all input. In your opinion would I be better off with the 1" foam and no gap?