M116A3 Build

...ask your questions in the appropriate forums BUT document your build here...preferably in a single thread...dates for updates, are appreciated....

Re: M116A3 Build

Postby lfhoward » Sat Jul 15, 2023 7:26 pm

bdosborn wrote:Something I thought you might like to know about:

The van garage got pretty hot yesterday, about 95F or so and the Bluetooth for the Cerbo shutdown. I found out about it when I got a temperature alarm and found that none of the Mopeka or Ruuvi devices were reporting. It looks like its a known thing with the Cerbo and they recommend a Bluetooth dongle if you're using Ruuvi devices. I think the Cerbo is just a repackaged Raspberry Pi so I wonder if you'll run into the same issue...
Cerbo GX Bluetooth Issue

Bruce
P.S. the Bluetooth came back on after it got cooler that night.

Thank you Bruce. I can confirm that the TP-Link UB400 bluetooth dongle is plug and play and works with the Raspberry Pi running Venus OS. I think the dongle was about $12 on Amazon if you'd like to get one. All you have to do is plug it into a USB port and then toggle the Cerbo's bluetooth off in the settings.

The reason I have this already is that I was trying to eek out a little bit better range because my Mopeka LPG sensor and RuuviTag outdoor temperature sensor are both intermittent in their connections. Both are on the other side of a steel trailer bed, so the bluetooth has trouble reaching. They did connect better initially, but their batteries are a year old now and I may try replacing those to try and get back to more reliable connections. I haven't run into any indication that my connection issues are temperature dependent, or that the Pi's bluetooth cut out at higher temps back when I was using the Pi's oem antenna.
My off-road camper build on an M116A3 military chassis:
http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=62581
Tow vehicle: 2008 Jeep Liberty with a 4 inch lift.
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Re: M116A3 Build

Postby bdosborn » Sun Jul 16, 2023 1:54 pm

The TP Link will be here Monday!
Thanks,
Bruce
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Re: M116A3 Build

Postby lfhoward » Sun Jul 16, 2023 2:06 pm

:thumbsup:

bdosborn wrote:The TP Link will be here Monday!
Thanks,
Bruce
My off-road camper build on an M116A3 military chassis:
http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=62581
Tow vehicle: 2008 Jeep Liberty with a 4 inch lift.
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Re: M116A3 Build

Postby lfhoward » Mon Jul 17, 2023 9:25 am

My next mod is going to be to add a pwm controller to my fantastic vent fan. This will both make it less noisy and make it consume less power. In addition, it will be infinitely adjustable rather than having only three speeds.

Here is someone else’s writeup with some good photos of the process.
http://ourelkhorn.itgo.com/camperII/fansw.htm

There are multiple ways to wire this up. Some people keep the 3 speed switch and add the pwm controller in line afterwards. To me, this sort of defeats the purpose of saving amps, since the original resistor-based switch is still there. Resistors are inefficient because they generate useless heat. I’m going to see if I can replace the OEM switch entirely with the pwm switch.
My off-road camper build on an M116A3 military chassis:
http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=62581
Tow vehicle: 2008 Jeep Liberty with a 4 inch lift.
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Re: M116A3 Build

Postby bdosborn » Mon Jul 17, 2023 5:33 pm

Make sure you get a quality PWM controller. I tried to slow down a fan with a cheap one and it was noisy AF at low speeds...
Bruce
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Re: M116A3 Build

Postby Tom&Shelly » Mon Jul 17, 2023 6:48 pm

bdosborn wrote:Make sure you get a quality PWM controller. I tried to slow down a fan with a cheap one and it was noisy AF at low speeds...
Bruce


As a former Air Force (AF) officer, I'm excited to see there is a new meaning for the acronym! (Although Shelly informs me the A doesn't mean quite what I thought it did.) :lol:

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Re: M116A3 Build

Postby bdosborn » Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:23 pm

And the F isn't anything close to what you thought. ;)
Bruce
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Re: M116A3 Build

Postby lfhoward » Sun Jul 30, 2023 4:05 pm

LOL, had a chuckle at that one. I have been off grid for a couple of weeks camping in WV. Vacation was so very much needed!!!

Image

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I did the PWM fan mod out there in the field. What a difference. It works great and no buzzing. I am happy with how I can get a good quiet breeze at 0.2 amps now.

The electrical overhaul worked out well, with no surprises and every part working as it should. One reason I added a new more efficient inverter (Victron of course), is that I needed to power a 65 watt CPAP through the night now. The machine I have is a 24 volt unit that doesn’t come with a 12 volt adapter option, so I plug it in to 120 VAC. The Victron inverter was seamless and quiet.

By morning my 156 amp hour battery was typically at 65%. With 410 watts of solar panels (210 on the roof and 200 on the ground), it would usually fully charge by about 2 or 3 pm. On cloudy days it would take all day to make up the energy. My wife pointed out that we are going to need more solar if we want to be able to camp sustainably in winter. She is right! Winter solar collection is probably about half of what I get now, and that would not be enough to regenerate the ~55 amp hours used by the CPAP overnight.
My off-road camper build on an M116A3 military chassis:
http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=62581
Tow vehicle: 2008 Jeep Liberty with a 4 inch lift.
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Re: M116A3 Build

Postby lfhoward » Sun Jul 30, 2023 5:09 pm

Adding solar is a complicated thing to do, but I have given it a lot of thought. My trailer has a 210 watt 12 volt panel on the roof, and two auxiliary 100 watt 12 volt panels that can be deployed on the ground. The aux panels are in series, forming a 200 watt, 24 volt system. Both the roof and aux systems have their own Victron 75/15 charge controller. These controllers are maxed out at 220 watts of 12 volt panels or 440 watts of 24 volt. They also can only do 15 amps charging at their max, which would be achieved at around 220 watts. Having additional solar capacity wouldn’t increase the max output of these controllers, but it would make it so they produce 15 amps for a longer period during the day. The 200 or 210 watt max was achieved by my aux panels around noon with no clouds, with the panels pointed in the right direction. Most of the day I seemed to get around 150 watts from them, and about 120 watts from the roof (which was never pointed in the right direction). These numbers are rough estimates and they changed all the time depending on clouds, sun angle, and shade from trees.

There are two options for adding more panels. I have ruled out adding to the aux system because I would need another two matching suitcase solar panels to make two pairs of panels in series that are in parallel with each other to stay at 24 volts. Four 100 watt panels would be under the 440 watt limit but would exceed the 75 volts open circuit voltage that my controller can handle, so I would also need a bigger controller. Victron has a 100/20 controller that would work within my physical space constraints, but now I am buying two panels and a controller for an aux system that is not always used. It would also be twice the work to set out and move 4 panels during the day instead of 2. And two panels are also pretty efficient, even making the 15 amp max in perfect conditions.

The second better option I think is to add to the roof. I have a 210 watt panel up there but hardly ever see that much because the panel doesn’t get moved during the day to track the sun. That being the case, there is nearly 100 watts of additional capacity for my 75/15 controller that is going unutilized most of the time. Adding panels up on the roof would get me the most bang for my buck, I think. I don’t have room up there for a second 210 watt panel, but I do have room for two 100 watt panels, on either side of the fan cover.

Image

Adding more panels of different sizes is tricky though, because the whole system can be dragged down by the weakest panel. The best case would be to have matching amps and voltage in all panels so there is no weak link. Finding panels with matching stats is not as easy as it sounds.

My 210 watt panel is a Hightec Solar unit, very high quality. It has a Vmp of 22.4 volts and an Imp of 9.3 amps. It is still considered to be a “12 volt panel” because it doesn’t get above 24 volts. To match this, I will need to find two 100 watt panels that are about 22 volts Vmp and 4.75 amps Imp. The two 12 volt panels can be paralleled to make an equivalent 200 watt 12 volt panel that can be put in series with the existing 210 watt panel. Thus, I would be making a system that is about 400 watts at 24 volts, which my 75/15 controller could handle. The open circuit voltage would be under 75 with only three panels, so it should work. The goal would be to produce close to 15 amps of power (from about 220 usable watts) for most of the day. If I find that a lot of good watts above 220 are being wasted, then I could upgrade the controller to the 100/20 model, which can convert a max of 290 watts of sun to 20 amps of charging. I doubt I would need a controller capable of using all 400 watts at once because the angle on roof panels will rarely be optimal.

The best match for 100 watt panels that I have found so far is by Renogy. I have Renogy briefcase panels for my aux system and have been very happy with them, so I wouldn’t mind adding some of theirs to the roof. The Renogy panels have Vmp of 20.4 volts and Imp of 4.91 amps. In parallel, two of these would produce 9.82 amps, and this could then be put in series with the Hightec panel. Here is where the math gets tricky and I could use some help.

Two of the Renogy 100 watt panels in parallel is 20.4 Vmp, 9.82 A Imp
That in series with the 210 watt Hightec panel which is 22.4 Vmp, 9.3 A Imp

20.4x9.3 + 20.4x9.82
189.72 + 200.328 = 390.048 watts for the whole array (95% of 410 watts) at 40.8 volts

OR do I do it this way?
22.4x9.3 + 20.4x9.3 = 398.04 watts (97% of 410 watts) at 42.8 volts

Either way (using the lowest volts or lowest amps) would be great efficiency for mixing different panels in the same array. Which math (if any) is correct for mixing these panels?

Thanks in advance!
My off-road camper build on an M116A3 military chassis:
http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=62581
Tow vehicle: 2008 Jeep Liberty with a 4 inch lift.
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Re: M116A3 Build

Postby featherliteCT1 » Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:39 pm

My understanding is that the maximum volt rating of 75v for your Victron controller is a hard maximum number, which if exceeded will fry the MPPT.

In cold temperatures, your PV panels will produce higher voltages than stated on the PV panel sticker.

For example, three of my 12v 100W Renogy panels, each with 22.4 Voc, wired in series at 20 degrees F, will produce 74V, which seems dangerously close to your 75v max.

You might want to play around with the temperature calculator linked below, by inputting your exact panel specs, to make sure you feel comfortable.

https://explorist.life/solar-charge-con ... alculator/

You may already know this. If so, ignore my post. :)
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Re: M116A3 Build

Postby lfhoward » Sun Jul 30, 2023 9:11 pm

No, didn’t think of it, even though I know solar makes more power when cold. Thanks for the tip! It might make me spring for the Victron 100/20, depending on how close things are. If I don’t fry the 75/15 I can sell it or keep it for another project. I am not able to type precise measurements into the calculator page using my phone so I’ll fire this up on the computer to see what I get.

Stats:

Hightec Solar 210 watt panel
22.4 V Vmp
9.30 A Imp
22.9v Voc
9.85 A Isc

Renogy 100 watt mono panel (2 in parallel)
20.4 V Vmp
4.91 A Imp (9.82 A in parallel)
24.3 V Voc
5.21 A Isc (10.42 A in parallel)
My off-road camper build on an M116A3 military chassis:
http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=62581
Tow vehicle: 2008 Jeep Liberty with a 4 inch lift.
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Re: M116A3 Build

Postby bdosborn » Sun Jul 30, 2023 9:22 pm

The panel with the lowest current will limit the entire parallel/series array output so Imp will be 9.3A. The MPPT controller will run the array at the voltage that produces maximum power, I don't know what that would be but if I had to guess I would pick halfway between 20.4 and 22.4. Lets use 21V. Your two Renogy panels in parallel and then in series with the Hightec would be: (21V*9.3A) + (21V*9.3)=390W@42V. BUT, you're charging your battery at 13.5V or so which means the controller output will be around 30A. That's overpaneling the controller by a lot, I think Victron allows 130%. I went down this same rabbit hole and bought another controller rather than do parallel/series. Why? Any kind of shading would really limit the output. That's why I have two 100W panels in paralleled to one controller and two 210W panels in series to another. I figure I'll get *some* power to the battery even if part of my roof is shaded.
https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2014/03/28/matching-victron-energy-solar-modules-to-the-new-mppt-charge-regulators/

Bruce
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Re: M116A3 Build

Postby lfhoward » Mon Jul 31, 2023 8:09 am

Hi Bruce,

The shading issue is something to think about. When the sun is low, I would probably get shade from the fan cover onto part of one of the panels. The Renogy panels are narrower than many others so can be positioned more to the outside edge of the roof to avoid the shade, but shading may still happen. If the two 100 watt panels were in parallel I would imagine it would be less of an issue than if they were in series with each other, but then I was planning to have them both in series with the big panel. In theory I could parallel them all, but then I would have more than 20 amps coming in to the controller on what I think is 12 gauge wire (but may be 14 gauge — need to check that. Changing out the wiring in the wooden ceiling is not really an option).

In parallel the amps get added together but we would use the lowest voltage.
20.4x9.3 + 20.4x4.91 + 20.4x4.91 = 189.72+100.164+100.164 = 390.048 watts (95% efficient array).

The controller I have would not be sufficient for this kind of watts at 12 volt, and I would have to upgrade to a 100/30. And I would need to fuse all the panels and upgrade my breakers.

Do you think the all-parallel array would work better in real world conditions than the parallel-series idea I started with?
My off-road camper build on an M116A3 military chassis:
http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=62581
Tow vehicle: 2008 Jeep Liberty with a 4 inch lift.
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Re: M116A3 Build

Postby bdosborn » Mon Jul 31, 2023 11:55 am

That's a complicated question, kinda like asking how often you should change your oil. Try Googling that and see how many responses you get! :lol: The real answer is one that nobody wants to hear: it depends. The best place to camp has always been in or next to shade so I've spent a lot of time (nerd test!) watching how my panels react to shading. So I'm probably more sensitive to the effects than most people. But, there are some performance benefits from series arrays that are real, which is why I have some series panels on the van. I think I would try the parallel/series array and orient the panels on the roof so that the Hitech panel is the least likely to be shaded; it will have the greatest impact on output. In the real word you wont ever see 390W output since your panels are flat. I've never seen more than 80% on mine (except when there was a freaky cloud fringe effect) so the overpaneling is probably a moot issue. You've got the Cerbo VRM that will tell you if the arrangement isn't performing well and then maybe you make some changes if required.
Bruce
P.S. This is where the Electrodacus BMS shines, my parallel panels are directly connected to the battery through a relay with no controller. The BMS turns the relay on below 95% SOC charge and off when it gets above that. The PV panel specs need to be in a battery compatible range to do it but the relay is only $20. I'm using a second relay for a portable panel.
P.P.S. I broke down and bought a Cerbo GX 50 display, it will be here tomorrow. I got tired of waiting for the software update from the GUI guy to make the generic display compatible with the Cerbo.
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Re: M116A3 Build

Postby Tom&Shelly » Mon Jul 31, 2023 6:55 pm

bdosborn wrote:That's a complicated question, kinda like asking how often you should change your oil.


Always best to change your oil in series, not in parallel. And, if you plan to change that little rubber seal on the cock, do it while the crankcase is empty, or you'll have oil running down your arm...

Or did I misunderstand this thread? :thinking:

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