Bigger than a teardrop....

[Michael Honeycutt]

Greetings all! Well I just took possession of a 1972 Prowler about 20-21 feet in length counting tongue. It has a double axle. Obviously this won't technically be a tiny travel trailer. It was parked in someone's field for around an eternity or so and then someone started to tear it down. They yanked the kitchen which kinda bums me out because I really wanted a 3-burner cook-top with oven. Anyway, the deeper I delve into it, the more I realize this thing is gonna need a major rework. There have been a lot of leaks going for several years and a bunch of it is well rotted. I'm fine with that because I don't like the way it was laid out to start with but, for $400.00, I wouldn't have been able to buy just the trailer frame. I'm hoping to go with a more minimalist style of build that includes a portable kitchen arrangement. Frankly, I'm from the camp that says," If it's in a trailer, it's not really camping." That said, I'm a 100% service connected disabled Navy veteran that just hit 54 years old. I'm dealing with a rare form of rheumatoid arthritis along with several injuries I incurred playing SEAL Team wannabe. My body has started rebelling against my tent camping technique and obstructive sleep apnea has me yearning for air via a c-pap machine at night. My wife is a disabled vet too. All things considered, camping is about to commence trailer style. I'm hard headed but not dumb. We both want a queen sized bed and room to move at night due to cramps and potty runs. This trailer is looking like a strip-to-the-frame kind of proposition and I'm undertaking it on a disabled vet's pension. Fun and Games!!!

Right now I'm in the process of taking the innards out and setting them aside to test for functionality. I'm also trying to document as much of the electrical system as possible because I will most likely be re-using some or all of the pieces in the interest of saving money. There are some 12Vdc fixtures inside as well so I'm really going to be tracking two separate electrical systems with an eye for possibly including some solar cells in the future. I'm not convinced that I really want the built in shower and flushable toilet. I would definitely like to hear from anyone out there that has undertaken a similar project for recommendations on whether a shower and flush toilet (with attendant holding tanks) are really required. I'm trying to either reduce weight or trade some weight off in one area to increase weight in others. For example, right now the walls are 2" thick with some insulation and a furnace. I'm talking about a trade off like ditching the furnace and building up to 4" thick insulated walls. Just a notion but that's the kind of weight trade-off I'm talking about.
The trailer's 40 gallon water potable water storage tank is gone and , if I keep the shower, I'll probably have to replace it AND keep the blackwater holding tank. Not my view of a lightweight system, you know?
I'm thinking porta-potty style chemical toilet and solar shower kinds of weight loss. Then I can lose all that extra plumbing and water storage stuff.

Anyway, This is a brand new undertaking that has me a little daunted but I'm fairly sure that my limited background in plumbing, electrical, and carpentry construction work are going to serve me well. I'm sure I can pull it off.

So I'm looking for opinions here on the following topics:

1.) How necessary are running water type bathroom conveniences like showers, hot water heaters (LP Gas), and flush toilets?

2.) Recommended alternatives on cooking facilities like stoves and ovens.
It's just my wife and I and we are familiar with dutch oven use but we are also looking for bad weather cooking facilities inside the trailer.

3.) Ways and means of keeping warm other than having to haul around the built in furnace. Does anyone use those Buddy and Big buddy heaters and, if so, how well do they work for you?

I guess that's it for now folks. I don't know enough about this whole process to even ask intelligent questions right now. The deeper I go into it, the more specific questions I'll be able to ask about it all.
No, it won't technically be a teardrop but I really like this site and I'm sure I can use a bunch of the information here to good advantage. Us old, beat up types need a bit more room, or at least I need more than a tent in the rain and snow. Thanks for any suggestions or comments.

[Weirdnerd]

Welcome to the forum, I am a new guy too, but I have found a thread that may have exactly what you are looking for, lots of good info and the pictures are top notch....


http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?t=37391&start=60

PS, I hope you start soon, and keep those pictures coming!!!!

[S. Heisley]

Michael Honeycutt wrote:

1.) How necessary are running water type bathroom conveniences like showers, hot water heaters (LP Gas), and flush toilets?

2.) Recommended alternatives on cooking facilities like stoves and ovens.
It's just my wife and I and we are familiar with dutch oven use but we are also looking for bad weather cooking facilities inside the trailer.

3.) Ways and means of keeping warm other than having to haul around the built in furnace. Does anyone use those Buddy and Big buddy heaters and, if so, how well do they work for you?

------------------------------------

First, welcome to the forum! You'll find most anything you want to know here. Just read, read, read! To answer your questions from a high level:

1) That depends on you! Most campgrounds have facilities and, using them saves having to clean or mess with your own. However, I would definitely have some sort of potty for the middle of the night or for possible -heaven forbid- sick days. You could use either a porta-potty type or a Luggable Loo style and still avoid running water issues, if that's what you're trying to do.

2) Those little cartridge butane stove burners work okay for rainy days. They don't take up a lot of storage space and have been used indoors for years by caterers. If you'd like to see what one looks like, ACE hardware carries them, as do restaurant supply stores. Or, you could put in a little two burner propane stove and pipe the gas from outside...or more. There are stove/oven conbinations available, too. Be certain to use adequate ventilation with any of these.

3) ...Not good at this one yet; but, if you do a search here on the forum, you'll find lots of solutions, propane, electric, etc.

[fromeo]

So I'm looking for opinions here on the following topics:

1.) How necessary are running water type bathroom conveniences like showers, hot water heaters (LP Gas), and flush toilets?

As Sharon mentioned, this is all a matter of personal preference. Many (most?) people build without, I am one of the few that built with. Most modern campgrounds have bath house facilities, and if you were comfortable with those when tent camping, you will probably still be comfortable.

I like being able to stop anywhere and having a bathroom ready to go. My first and only experience in a campground shower found a "surprise" left on the floor by some prior user. I know that's not the norm, but I'll stick to my own shower and leave the flip-flops at home. As for the potty, I've dealt with porta-potties before, and I'll dump 100 RV black tanks through a hose before cleaning one more porta-potty.

2.) Recommended alternatives on cooking facilities like stoves and ovens. It's just my wife and I and we are familiar with dutch oven use but we are also looking for bad weather cooking facilities inside the trailer.

We do 95+% of our cooking outside. That said, I like having something inside for cooking. We're generally weekend campers, meaning we often pull in at dusk or occasionally after dark. It's nice to be able to fire up the stove and cook something simple after unhitching. Our 24' trailer has a 3 burner stovetop and an oven. We like having the oven and often use it when we camp with a group to make food for potluck dinners. We could easily live without it. In the current build (for my brother) we went with a 2 burner stovetop and no oven. The stovetop was very inexpensive and light, making it a good compromise for him. One thing with cooking inside, you need ventilation. Both my commercial RV and the current build have range hoods that vent outside. Using the hood, I have never had an issue with odor, although I admit I stay away from real stinky foods indoors. I don't want to feel like I'm sleeping in a restaurant.

3.) Ways and means of keeping warm other than having to haul around the built in furnace. Does anyone use those Buddy and Big buddy heaters and, if so, how well do they work for you?

I am a fan of the furnace. It uses outside air for combustion and exhaust, making it safe. They are not as efficient as a catalytic heater for that reason, but I feel it's a fair trade off. One downside to the furnace is that they use a couple amps of DC power when running (fan). If you are plugged-in to shore power, it's no issue.

Buddy heaters produce a good amount of heat. When we first started boondocking, we used one to heat our 24' trailer. It was a little marginal for that much space, but the "big buddy" would have been fine. Now that we boondock frequently, I have made some electrical changes and upgrades so that we no longer need to use it, but I do keep it around for odd jobs and emergencies. One thing that is *very* important when using those types of heaters is ventilation - you must have a window/vent/etc open to provide fresh air. They are generally pretty good about not producing carbon monoxide, but they will use up the oxygen in a closed space. When we used ours, I chose to not use it while sleeping, we used the furnace instead. Waking up dead makes for a bad day.


Long winded post, but again, it's a matter of personal preference and you should build what works for you! Oh, and post pictures, lots of pictures!

- Frank

[Michael Honeycutt]

Thanks everyone!
@ Weirdnerd: Thanks for that link! I've been searching the site and still hadn't come up with that one. It will prove valuable I'm sure.

@Sharon: My wife and I are quite comfortable with the use of a portable, canister type 2 burner camp stove. We've used one almost exclusively for years of camping except for when we were using our dutch-ovens and cast iron pots, skillets and the like. We are mainly looking for some kind of oven arrangement for indoor baking. Thanks for your suggestions though.

@ Frank: Unfortunately, here in New Mexico, those unwanted surprise packages in the showers are far more common than you might think. I personally believe it to be partially because of our porous Southern border and the high influx of illegals making their way North. But there are also some here that actually won't clean up a mess left by their kids because they simply can't be bothered.
We have tended to camp in the more primitive areas of park campgrounds in an effort to avoid over-crowded mini-cities that form on holidays here. Memorial day week-end and the 4th of July turn Elephant Butte Lake State Park into a city just slightly smaller than Albuquerque. It can be a zoo. I don't do well in crowded groups. On the other hand, those primitive style outhouses are very good at imitating gas chambers on a hot day.

I appreciate all of your replies and suggestions. I will consider them carefully and discuss them with my wife before I get into the design phase too much.
Here in NM there are frequently "No burn" days that last weeks at a time because of high fire danger and drought/windy conditions. Thus the need for indoor cooking at times. There are some fairly nice campgrounds here but not many of them that I've seen provide shower facilities or even dump stations. I could be wrong about the dump stations because my tent doesn't have a black-water tank, and I never looked for them.
So far all I've taken pictures of have been the state of the trailer as purchased and those aren't much to look at. I will be documenting the build portion though so I'll post those as able. You guys are my rah-rah squad cheerleaders! Thanks again. Mike

[S. Heisley]

Sorry about that, Mike. You’re right. Most of us don’t get as detailed as what you want.

For potty stuff, the first two pages of this thread shows you how some of us are set up:

http://tnttt.com/viewto ... sc&start=0

If nothing else, the above thread is entertaining!

You already have the link to Fromeo’s build, above. For additional shower thoughts, you might get Bruce Osborn’s opinion. Although he doesn’t have a picture in his build thread, he did put in a shower:

http://tnttt.com/viewto ... &start=135

Bruce is also into solar power. To see his set-up, look here:

http://tnttt.com/viewto ... ight=solar

For additional solar information, check here:

http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?t=27481

For galley ideas, check here:

http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q120 ... 20Gallery/

Granted, some are less than you want but you can get a lot of ideas while reviewing them and some have stoves with ovens. I know that there are others not displayed in the gallery; but, I found ovens on pages 4, 7, and 20, of the Galley Gallery.

I don’t know if this one can be used indoors or not, (kind of doubt it) but below is an oven with two burners:

http://webapps.easy2.com/cm2/flash/gene ... d=35803215

Personally, I rarely use an oven, even at home. They are energy hogs. At home, whenever possible, I use a crock-pot for anything that might be an oven recipe. I understand Coleman has a propane crock-pot. I haven’t heard much about it and don’t know if it is a better energy solution than an oven. I would think it would be. I did hear that it needs liquid in the bottom to keep from burning things.

I suggest you look at SDTripper’s index, at the top of the screen (or click below) for information on most any trailer-related information you are interested in. He has gone to a lot of effort to put this together:

http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?t=12276

If the above doesn’t help you, you’ll have to use the search button at the top of the screen or do some deeper research. The answers are out there. You just have to be patient and thoughtful in your search.

One more thought: You may want to keep your trailer re-build as simple as possible. Time is sometimes your biggest enemy and everything you do, when building, seems to take longer than one might think.

Good luck on your design and please post your drafted design in the Member Designs section as, a lot of times, members will speak up with good information there when they haven’t previously spoken up in a thread like this one.

[Hillmann]

I personally think that adding running water to a camper adds a lot of unnecessary weight, cost, complications and, if in an area where it freezes, extra maintenance. When it comes to keeping clean a shower might be nice but it could be done almost as easily with a bowl of water and a rag. And a for the toilet there are many options other than a flushing toilet. My personal choice is a five gallon bucket with sawdust and a lid. The biggest problem with running water is that water is heavy. Forty gallons weighs around 320 lbs and when you start talking about multiple people taking showers every day and flushing the toilet is only a couple days worth.

[Michael Honeycutt]

Thanks Sharon for all of the info. I apologize for sounding rude in my last post. As I re-read it I realized I'd come across as kinda rough and it definitely wasn't my intention. It had been a rather long day and I was tired, not really watching what I was writing. You make an excellent point about the ovens not being used a lot and being energy hogs. I may skip it in the long run. Maybe not though because I'm trying to lose some weight and baked stuff is better for me than fried. This year I found myself pushing 290 lbs after a major surgery on my left foot. Gotta lose it and, now that I have a project to work on, I believe I will. Most of the time we cook outdoors too. Again, Thanks and apologies.

Hillman, I'm kinda with you on the running water, flush toilet but I also have to consider my wife's position as well. She's currently all over that running water gig. I'm hoping to show her how, with all of the stuff she thinks she wants in this thing, there simply isn't enough room to pull it all off. A queen sized bed and all the other frills are eating up room faster than she thinks. She wants lots of cabinets and counter top, a fridge, furnace, microwave, bigger bathroom, hot water heater and all the trimmings. Unfortunately I just don't see how all of that is going to fit in comfortably. A lot of it was in there but not laid out the way she wanted it.
Who knows? As the resident genius I may actually pull it all off. But the "Wanna" list isn't open ended.

Today I spent most of the day tearing things out. I'm trying to keep tabs on the electrical goodies. The 12 Vdc system was and still remains to be a total mystery. It wasn't originally built for a 12 volt system and someone decided to add one after they bought the trailer. It was such a totally cobbled up mess I just yanked as much as I could find. They followed no color code of any kind and most of it was run with speaker wire and cut up electric cords. No labels on anything. In some cases they stripped out bare wire and left it hanging bare. Some of the wire wasn't thick enough and had started to melt insulation. That was enough for me. Thanks for all the continued Ideas, links, and opinions. They are all very good to have. I'll keep posting as I get this thing going.

[2bits]

I think the running water aspect is a good choice for your camper but not to carry clean water, you just hook up the water when you pull into the site, then dump on your way out. That way you are never toting anything, you just need to work around the hot water piece.

You gotta love anything named "Prowler" too

[Michael Honeycutt]

2Bits Yeah I think Prowler is better than peeper or stalker or groper.
I'm fully in favor of hauling along 5 gallon water bottles for drinking water and cooking. Dumping things would save a lot of weight issues. But, in 1970, my family (mom,dad, and us 3 boys) drove the Alaskan Highway in a 15 foot camper behind an old Ford Station-wagon. It only had a gravity feed 10 gallon water tank next to the sink that was refilled from the outside every time we got to a place with potable water. That worked well for a family of 5. Frequently, when we stopped for the night, it was next to a river or lake. So my older brother and I were tasked with hauling water in a bucket for washing up and bathing. Bathing was accomplished in a #3 galvanized wash basin. I would have preferred a larger tub but, you got wet, lathered up and then the bucket that had been hanging over a fire was carefully poured over you, head to foot, to rinse off. Not quite like a shower but it got us clean without any draw on the batteries or a holding tank to dump. If it worked for us then, I'm sure something similar can be worked out now. Most of the water system, except for pipe, was removed from this trailer before I got it so if I want one I'll pretty much have to build it from scratch.
We used the same basin with a rub board and a couple of plastic 5 gal. buckets to do laundry in too. In fact that's how we did laundry for the entire 5 months we were in Alaska.

[S. Heisley]

Michael Honeycutt wrote:

We used the same basin with a rub board and a couple of plastic 5 gal. buckets to do laundry in too. In fact that's how we did laundry for the entire 5 months we were in Alaska.

Mike, your mother was/is a saint.

[Michael Honeycutt]

Sharon Yeah I think so too. When we got up there both my older and younger brother had to register for school but I didn't. Being the resident nerd paid off. But my family was one that believed in a strong work ethic so, when I stayed home with mom, I was helping bake bread, tending a garden, doing laundry etc. We all got equal time on the rub-board and rinsing things, then hanging them. My parents believed that, if you eat here, you work here, which was good for us as kids. That 5 month stint up there was a real adventure for a 14 yr. old. When I got out of the Navy my dad sold me that same trailer for $1.00 and I lived in it and a 16 ft. ARMY tent, with a greenhouse I built attached to the tent. It had a wood stove that I surrounded with 55 gal, drums full of water that got hot and held the heat for quite a while. I used a fan to blow the hot air out of the greenhouse into the tent at night to stay warm. The trailer acted as a pantry, kitchen, and closet space for all my stuff. Lived that way for a year. I'm fine with roughing it but this trailer will need a major over-haul to get liveable. My wife doesn't want to rough it any more than we have too and I can't blame her for that. I'm not 23 and fresh out of a special forces command anymore. I worked hard and played hard, as did she, and we are now paying the piper with all the aches and pains that go with it. But we still really enjoy getting out in the boonies whenever we can and want to do that in relative comfort. If it were up to me, I'd pop a bed in there, build some cabinets for food storage, load in 3 or 4 water jugs and head for the hills. She is my main civilizing factor and she too is a saint. 30 years of dealing with me hasn't been easy.