Tigin Linn - Little House and Us

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Re: Tigin Linn - Little House and Us

Postby McGuffin » Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:31 pm

daveesl77 wrote:Larry, once again, just beautiful work. That color is going to look really nice. Once finished and when traveling be prepared to spend a fair amount of time in petrol stations and campgrounds discussing your build. We spent a bit of time in Ireland a few years ago and would love to return someday.

dave


Hi Dave

Boy - I'm looking forward to that bit - chatting to people about how much fun it was building this thing :?
friz wrote:Great profile! I maybe rethinking my Grumman.


Hi Fritz,

Actually I started out with the Grumman myself and then halfway through making of the chassis I chickened out and instead build the Tigin based on Dave's Travelear. That's why the chassis for this baby has a few extra bits of steel in it!

Atomic77 wrote:Your build is looking great! Nice attention to detail and a good eye for design.

Now if I may... Try not to beat yourself up regarding your time frame. It is what it is and the speed of the build is often dictated by circumstances beyond your control. In my case, sometimes it's time, sometimes it's money... but very often it is because we are the chief designer, engineer, research and development specialist, etc, etc. In a factory it will take months on end just to design, then more months to develop a prototype, (I'm sure you get where I'm going.) I often get caught up in the time frame, wishing it was already done, wondering why it's taken me so long... but the reality is we are building a one-off original that no one else has. It's one of a kind. It's special. Our creation! Rome wasn't built in a day and neither are campers. Just enjoy the build, take your time and do it right... Because the day will come when the build will be long behind you and you will be amazed at how it will seem like it almost didn't even happen. Keep up the good work and enjoy the ride! :)


Thanks Michael,

You're dead right. Very little of the things worth having are ever easy to come by. In the long run it doesn’t matter how long it takes as long as it is done right. ;)

As you say this is a one-off build that requires patience and persistance. Also I knew from the beginning that I did not have the skill set to complete it without a lot of help from other people and that has slowed things down a good bit. And also there has been a fairly steep mostly enjoyable learning curve too.

Today I managed to get the roof insulated. In the end I decided to go for a professional closed cell foam spray because it would add to the strength of the trailer as well as insulating it. The first thing I had to do was some masking using banquetting roll (disposable paper table cloth that comes in a 100' roll):

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I taped up the spars and the sides too:

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Then the professional arrived! Fintan decided to spray up alternate voids first:

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This meant that it the excess could be cut off easier. He had a samuri sword sized breadknife for this bit:

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Then the rest of the voids were filled and trimmed - voilla!

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This method of insulation has made the trailer really strong and rigid. It has in effect glued everything together to one uniform monocoque structure. It means as well I don’t have to skin the roof with plywood.

One mistake I made however :shock: was that I did not sufficiently tape down one or two of the stray wires in the roof voids and some of them floated to the top with the expanding foam and then got cut with the big serrated bread knife:

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No real damage done though. I'll just have to splice and join the wires before the roof sheet goes on.

rebapuck wrote:Don't you wish this was your tow vehicle? Or is it?

McGuffin wrote:
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Hi Reba,

Here is my tow vehicle - a Toyota Yaris 1.4 Diesel:

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But I'm going to get one of these in 2 litre diesel guise as soon as the Tigin is ready for the road:

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Not as flashy as the wee convertible - but the VW will get 60+ miles per gallon and be able to pull 680 Kgs unbraked around the twisty backroads of Ireland, France and Italy hopefully without breaking down :thumbsup:

sláinte mhaith (your good health) ... :beer:

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Re: Tigin Linn - Little House and Us

Postby dave campbell » Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:31 pm

your trailer looks great ! glad the spray insulation worked out, save for the wires. i did not expect the foam to expand quite so much---i am curious as to how it will work on the inside curve of mine :beer:
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Re: Tigin Linn - Little House and Us

Postby Atomic77 » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:25 pm

I really like your foam idea. Looks like it will work out great! Keep in mind this will only further it being air tight... Take care to ventilate the cabin by cracking a window whenever you are sleeping in it.
Also, I was wondering what you meant by not having to skin with plywood.
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Re: Tigin Linn - Little House and Us

Postby McGuffin » Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:17 pm

dave campbell wrote:your trailer looks great ! glad the spray insulation worked out, save for the wires. i did not expect the foam to expand quite so much---i am curious as to how it will work on the inside curve of mine :beer:



Hi Dave,

Yes the foam worked out great. It is very messy to do but it conforms really well to the shapes.

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I used a bit of 2"x1" timber with some sandpaper to form the shapes

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I got the sandpaper and 2"x1" idea from Tim of the the "Tucon Tortoise"

Cheers Tim :thumbsup:


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Re: Tigin Linn - Little House and Us

Postby McGuffin » Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:30 pm

Atomic77 wrote:I really like your foam idea. Looks like it will work out great! Keep in mind this will only further it being air tight... Take care to ventilate the cabin by cracking a window whenever you are sleeping in it.
Also, I was wondering what you meant by not having to skin with plywood.


Hi Michael,

Thanks very much. You're right the foam will make everything super airtight and that will mean that ventilation is key also. I am fitting windows that crack open by tilting out so keepin a trickle of ventilation should be possible.

The remark about not having to sheet outside with ply means that the FRP goes on to the roof directly I am not required to put down a covering of luan first.

sláinte mhaith :beer:

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Re: Tigin Linn - Little House and Us

Postby Atomic77 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:26 pm

Ok now I'm following you. So that is really intriguing. I''m very interested about the method you are going to use to apply the FRP. I'm thinking FRP is similar to Filon is this correct?
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Re: Tigin Linn - Little House and Us

Postby McGuffin » Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:13 pm

Atomic77 wrote:Ok now I'm following you. So that is really intriguing. I''m very interested about the method you are going to use to apply the FRP. I'm thinking FRP is similar to Filon is this correct?


Hi Michael,

Yes I think it's the same stuff as filon.

Like you, I did not want to have to spend a lot of time polishing up aluminium so I opted for FRP. I intend to get it sprayed up to a nice grey. Expensive I know but what the hell 8) it's not exactly a 40 ft monster.

As for glueing it on ...I have bought a few tubes of white mastic glue which I will squeeze out along the timber cross members and edges then clamp the whole lot down with ratchet straps.

That's the plan anyway :)

Cheers.


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Re: Tigin Linn - Little House and Us

Postby Atomic77 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:18 pm

If you get a chance you might check out my build where I initially installed the Filon on the roof. This material is very unique and has weird expansion rates. Taking into consideration what I learned from my build, I'm thinking I would still use a thin plywood, then glue the FRP down with contact cement. I tried a couple of ways and the latter method is the only way that didn't go crazy when it was in the sun.
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Re: Tigin Linn - Little House and Us

Postby noseoil » Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:25 am

Larry, Michael has a good idea here. Even if you use the method which you're planning, & it's a good one, at least try a test panel to see how the glue & structure beneath it are going to work together as temperature changes things and the skin trys to move & crawl around in the heat. I still remember the picture Michael posted, when he had been away for a week, opened the doors, & saw what had happened!

It wasn't a pretty sight & the amount of re-work was very time consuming & involved for him. It turned out very well, but it was a lot of work to make things right again. Just sayin'.....

Edited for spelling: not enough coffee this morning!
Last edited by noseoil on Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tigin Linn - Little House and Us

Postby KCStudly » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:38 am

Don't forget that heat expansion is a linear phenomenon. Meaning that the magnitude of the effect is dependent on the length of the material in question. Every inch grows the same amount, so the growth is proportional to the length; so a longer piece (bigger camper) will have more of a problem than a smaller one.

I'm not saying don't consider the issue. Far from it, but I think part of the reason Michael had such a dramatic occurrence on the Atomic build was due to the much larger than typical TD size of his panels.
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Re: Tigin Linn - Little House and Us

Postby Atomic77 » Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:32 pm

Another reason I am suggesting the plywood underneath, is because the Filon or FRP wants to print by nature. So anything irregular whatsoever will cause it to print where plywood underlayment would solve that issue. There are several guys who have floated the skin with good success but as KC says, that is a linear expansion issue. Whether you decide to float or use contact cement as your adhesive, I highly suggest the underlayment to keep it flat and smooth.
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Re: Tigin Linn - Little House and Us

Postby McGuffin » Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:39 pm

Atomic77 wrote:If you get a chance you might check out my build where I initially installed the Filon on the roof. This material is very unique and has weird expansion rates. Taking into consideration what I learned from my build, I'm thinking I would still use a thin plywood, then glue the FRP down with contact cement. I tried a couple of ways and the latter method is the only way that didn't go crazy when it was in the sun.


noseoil wrote:Larry, Michael has a good idea here. Even if you use the method which you're planning, & it's a food one, at least try a test panel to see how the glue & structure beneath it are going to work together as temperature changes things and the skin trys to move & crawl around in the heat. I still remember the picture Michael posted, when he had been away for a week, opened the doors, & saw what had happened!

It wasn't a pretty sight & the amount of re-work was very time consuming & involved for him. It turned out very well, but it was a lot of work to make things right again. Just sayin'.....



Oh Feck!

Thanks Michael and Tim, I have just read your posts AFTER I stuck on the FRP !! :cry: - exactly how you advised I shouldn't !! So in a blind panic, I went back and looked again at the Astroliner build. I see the problems you had with heat and expansion but I don't think that the stuff I have used is the same material. Here is the stuff I have:

http://www.grpconsultants.co.uk/translu ... sheet.html

Then I saw this photo that you posted Michael. It appears that the Filon is much more flexible by compasison. The stuff I have could not curve like that.

Image

Also elsewhere you said that

Atomic77 wrote:The Filon I used comes in 7 and 8 foot rolls. There is a good side that has a peel-off protective coating.... .


My stuff has a smooth side and a reverse side which has a fibrose (fibreglass finish) so it is definiately different material.

So .... in my ignorance and optimism I just put beads of glue on the roof spars and down the outside edge.

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Then folded back the FRP sheet onto the roof (with about an inch overhang on each side) and scrinched the whole thing together with cargo ties. Because the material is translucent I could see the material squishing out the glue underneath!

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Image

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KCStudly wrote:Don't forget that heat expansion is a linear phenomenon. Meaning that the magnitude of the effect is dependent on the length of the material in question. Every inch grows the same amount, so the growth is proportional to the length; so a longer piece (bigger camper) will have more of a problem than a smaller one.

I'm not saying don't consider the issue. Far from it, but I think part of the reason Michael had such a dramatic occurrence on the Atomic build was due to the much larger than typical TD size of his panels.


Thanks KC - That is food for thought. I'm hoping that FRP will stand up to heat fluctuations OK - but I don't know for sure yet. I found this statment on the web:

" FRP composite panels ....[are] unaffected by a wide range of temperatures, (-65 °F to 135 °F). FRP panels are used in designs where a certain measure of strength or modulus of elasticity is required ..... the fiberglass reinforcement increases strength and provides good performance over a wide temperature range versus thermoplastics which are greatly affected by temperature. "

This might also explain why the UV protected corrugated plastic roof in my greenhouse cracks and creaks when the sun shines on it - being thermoplastic.

I'm hoping that the fibres embedded in the back of the FRP sheeting will hold the roof panel together and sufficiently resist the heat expansion caused by our mild Irish summers (when they arrive every 5 years or so). Incidently, I'm hoping as well that the glue I put on does it's job too ;) .... watch this space !! I'll let you know in four or five days when I pull off the straps.

Thanks for all your input and great suggestions,


Larry

(I suppose the good news is that nobody is dead ....yet)
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Re: Tigin Linn - Little House and Us

Postby noseoil » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:58 pm

Larry, I'm NOT familiar with your product! It's actually a bit thicker & much more rigid than I had thought it was when you mentioned it initially (about 0.05" thick at 1.3mm is how I have to think of it in 'Merican). Judging from the pictures you've posted, it took the curve very well & looks like it is working the way you have it strapped down now. It's acting more like the aluminum skin I used this weekend than a light fiberglass, which I mistakenly thought it was.

Are you planning on using some fasteners along the edges & molding to secure it at the corners? If so, I think it should be fine the way it is now. If the adhesive bonds well and sets for a long enough time, it should stay put & once it's painted should look very nice.

About the expansion, I ran the numbers for the aluminum I used and it came out to about a 4mm total movement in an 8' sheet. My temperature range is a bit more extreme than you have where you live. You may be able to find a data sheet giving you the coefficient of linear expansion (per length, per degree of temperature change). I'm sure it's out there, just a question of finding it & then doing the math to predict how much movement you can expect from winter to summer.

Again, looks like it went down very well!
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Re: Tigin Linn - Little House and Us

Postby Atomic77 » Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:53 am

Your material is certainly thicker than the skin I used. Probably used for shower installs maybe? With the thicker material you should be alright... I'm anxious to see the end result! Good luck!
:thumbsup:
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Re: Tigin Linn - Little House and Us

Postby McGuffin » Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:47 pm

noseoil wrote:Larry, I'm NOT familiar with your product! It's actually a bit thicker & much more rigid than I had thought it was when you mentioned it initially (about 0.05" thick at 1.3mm is how I have to think of it in 'Merican). Judging from the pictures you've posted, it took the curve very well & looks like it is working the way you have it strapped down now. It's acting more like the aluminum skin I used this weekend than a light fiberglass, which I mistakenly thought it was.


Hi Tim,

Actually all the confusion was my fault - I thought it was Filon but it is different material. It is the stuff that is used over here for the roofs of horse box trailers. It is rigid and translucent. I don't think that the expansion will be significant. And the glue I used has movement in it so hopefully ...... it'll all stick and keep stuck

sláinte

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