Meanwhile in the Netherlands,...

...ask your questions in the appropriate forums BUT document your build here...preferably in a single thread...dates for updates, are appreciated....

Re: Meanwhile in the Netherlands,...

Postby pchast » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:24 pm

Kees,

It was possible at one time to find an auto parts store in the states that
would have the old shoes relined with new material. I haven't used that
approach for some time but an Antique auto club should be helpful in
your country.
:thinking:
I had never seen a mechanical surge brake system before this. How is
the braking system on your trailer adjusted? Is the one side that failed
too snug and dragging before the other side?
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Re: Meanwhile in the Netherlands,...

Postby smeerkees » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:32 am

Hello Pete,

I know that the possibility of relining the brakeshoes does exist. Esspeccially in the "oldtimer" world.
I considered the possibillity briefly, but only if possible in conjunction with both glue, and rivets.

My estimate however was that the layer thickness of the friction material of this type of brakeshoes was maybe to thin for rivets . (Apart from the question if i would have enough space for rivets on the brake shoes.)
So it probably would be only glueing anyway.

This type of axle, brake combinations however are still widely used in the utility trailer world in Europe.
A complete set of (Original Bpw. brand) brakeshoes cost about € 82,- inclusive tax , and trailer garages have these sets in stock perminently.

And since i want to have my brake sytem in optimal shape if possible, i purchesed a brandnew set.

About the adjustmend of the brakepad sets, each component of this kind of surge braking system is individually adjustable. So the pullrod, as well as the cable's, as well as the drumbrake sets themselves. For adjusting the drumbrakes, You need 2 temporary lockingpins (2 small phillips screwdrivers will do) and than you can turn the adjustingbold on the inside of both the wheels. There is a good description of the brake adjustment setting with the brakingpad set. When you grease up the pulling boom regularly (grease nipples) and ones in a while the cables, and make sure that the cables are hold up a bit (under the trailer chassis), so there is no change of standing water inside them, it's a simple, and reliable system.
However adjusting the system is typically a case of READ THE MANUAL FIRST. And Don't do it by feel or hearing!!

In my honest opinion the breakdown of the brakepads in this situation, has indeed more to do with the use of the handbrake system.
In 2 of the 3 broken brakepads i found also corrosion on at least part of the glue surface area of the brakepads.
That tells me there was something going on for a longer time.
My theory is that the pressure and duration with the "handbrake on" situation on the brakepads and glue is maybe a bit higher than we think, but in itself not to much. The glue is designed for high pressure and heat. But when there would be some water intrusion between the brakepads (read: the frictionsurface) and the brake drums, in that "long park" duration, by for instance rain, or even condensation, there will be some kind of corrosion. Effectively the friction material can corrode on the breakdrum.
Now: when you would want to move the trailer in this situation , and you loosen the handbrake lever you won't notice anything, but the brake pads can still be "sticking" on the drumbrakes.
only when you move the trailer you would hear a loud "CLUNK" noise before it moves.
That could mean 2 things. Either the corosion layer between the friction material and the breakdrum breaks, or the glue between the breakpad, and the friction material breaks. In most cases probably the corrosion layer between the friction material, and the brakedrum will break, but in doing that, damaging the glue layer between the breakpad, and the layer of frictionmaterial would be quit possible.

(Add the expand, and contract charasteristics of temperature fluctuations on the materials, and even the possebillity of frost, and you would probably have your answer on the "how come" of the situation.)

In that respect when i wash my car ( Yes the Fiat 500), i later properly would make a drive around the block first instead of the next day.
In one night the brakepads of the front discbrakes will "corrode" on the disc. when i would wait for a drive for about 3 days after a carwash,
the loosening klunk of the diskbrakepads is significant, and almost scary.
With my last car (a Peugeot 306 (google that one...)), i never heard a klunk what so ever.
That could mean 2 things. A. the Fiat discbrake system is much more "open" for water or standing water , and/or B: the space between the braking pads and the front brakediscs of the Peugeot is significant bigger.

The advice to avoid the use of the handbrake of the trailer in longterm parking situations, though a little bit strange,
now sounds a lot more understandable to me.

Greets, Kees.
Last edited by smeerkees on Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Meanwhile in the Netherlands,...

Postby dales133 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:07 pm

If you googke around your area someone will rebond shoes as its done alot on trucks and industrial machinery due to the cost of the shoes themselves.
You can get every componant rebuilt pretty much
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Re: Meanwhile in the Netherlands,...

Postby smeerkees » Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:29 pm

dales133 wrote:If you googke around your area someone will rebond shoes as its done alot on trucks and industrial machinery due to the cost of the shoes themselves.
You can get every componant rebuilt pretty much


Hello Dales133,

Due to the easy availabillity i got a set of new brakepads.
When a new set would be more difficult to get, rebonding the old shoes would be a good alternative.

I don't know were you are from, but my experience here in the Netherlands is ( though i am not really familiar in that world), that rebonding brakeshoes is'nt done that much anymore. The factor "time" and/or "labortime" is here the biggest cost.
(Dont forget the "waiting for parts time" for garages here ).
Not realy the costs of the friction material of the brakeshoes.
In cases of low numbers, and low availabillity, rebonding will be more profitable. And sometimes even the only option.

However you got me the idea to keep the old brakeshoes for my trailer the next time i mount a new set.
In the future, this could be one of those cases in wich you are glad you kept an old set for the possabillity of rebonding.

greets, Kees.
Last edited by smeerkees on Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Meanwhile in the Netherlands,...

Postby dales133 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:34 pm

Cool kees glad to see you sorted it out.
I did a brake service enginers apprenticeship years ago in new Zealand and most rebonding was on an exchange bases so was instant turn around.
On realy oddball stuff (like borgward issabellas and the like ) it usualy only took a few days.
You can get wheel cylenders re slieved and put new kits in too
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Re: Meanwhile in the Netherlands,...

Postby smeerkees » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:32 am

Hello Dales133,

I am blessed with a group of friends with a reasenable diversity of technical background.

That goes from cars, and big trucks,(mechanics), to car demolition, to motorcycles (mainly older stuff from BMW and Harley Davidson),
to some Industrial engineering.

When you keep your eyes, and ears open, as well as your mind, and have some common sense,
for me the attempt to build a teardrop trailer is at least worth a try.
At the end: you get it how you make it, and with some time to spare, for me it's an adventure in itself.

Greets, Kees.
Last edited by smeerkees on Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Meanwhile in the Netherlands,...

Postby dales133 » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:39 am

Sounds like youve got it under control.
Verry keen to watch the progression
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Re: Meanwhile in the Netherlands,...

Postby smeerkees » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:50 am

Hello everybody,

So, i have a small trailer chassis, and some photo's and a silhouette drawing of the Grumman 2 8x5 ft. model teardrop trailer.

Is there already some kind of plan in this madness?

Well, yeah, a 1:1 scale on a big piece of cardboard drawning by pencil, to be precise.
It's not realy finished yet, but gives a good idea dimension wise.
It's helped me a lot already.


My only problem here is that photographing a big piece of brown cardboard, with a pencil drawing is not that easy, regarding the type of light
there is available. But i give it a try.

Hmm, pretty difficult to see much of the drawing.

Any body an idea to enhance this situation? (, or do i have to re do the complete drawing with a big black magic marker...)

Greets, Kees.
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Re: Meanwhile in the Netherlands,...

Postby noseoil » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:59 am

Kees, that's the right way to do a build!

This way you can see all the parts, joints & sub-assemblies first, then see where things need to be changed or moved. The best tool you have now is an eraser, not a pencil! Once it's a finished design, use a magic marker to make the lines permanent and it's ready to build. I like it.

Don't forget lights, wire runs, battery, or any other things which need to be added for the finished build.
Build log: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=60248
The time you spend planning is more important than the time you spend building.........

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Re: Meanwhile in the Netherlands,...

Postby dales133 » Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:04 am

Dosnt look to bad at all kees.
Its faint but i see the shape and thats all thats important.
Go and find the generic benroy plans in the resources and follow that as a guideline for your build.
Ive made alot of changes but the basic construction techniqes are all outlined and its easy to follow.
Youll also pick up ideas or find new ideas as you go on
Last edited by dales133 on Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Meanwhile in the Netherlands,...

Postby smeerkees » Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:56 pm

Hello guys,

Thanks for your input.

Hmm, i know that my pensil drawing is not quit finished yet, also because of some design decisions i still have to make.
About some of those design decisions, i will probably ask for your opinions at a later time.

However about 90% of the drawing on the cardboard are already fixed lines.
Either, because of the already existing trailerframe, or because of the fixed lines of the Grumman 2. 8x5 ft. silhouet design, or even some already taken design decisions. (Think about the placing of the spare wheel under the frame, and the lengthening, and widening measurements
on the existing frame to meet the 8x5 ft. specs.

Already the drawing kept some concentration because of the intergration of several inch/foot measurements, into the further metric drawing.
Because of the (in my eyes) beautifull 8 ft. length, to 5 ft. width ratio , i kept those as they are.
I noticed that even slight differences in that ratio have already big consequenses in the result, looks wise.

(This decision has already consequences in the availability of the aluminum types, and sheetsize i want, here in the Netherlands.
I will tell you about that at a later time too.)


Ok, I will draw the already fixed lines with a black magic marker. Because the drawing is a partially kind of see through one, i will try to use
some differend types of thicknes in lines, this regarding the importantie of those lines.

For me it clears the drawing some more, and for the followers of this build journal i can make you some much more interesting photographs
of the drawing to upload here.

Maybe you noticed already that the planning, and work already done is not from a day or two.
Nope, from the time that i began looking for a suitable trailerframe till now, about 1,5 year already.
O.k., that includes finding my current build space. And time wise, off, en on.

So Noseoil,
you are surtainly right about the well spend time planning and drawing before the build....

I hope you give me some time redrawing...

Greets, Kees.
Last edited by smeerkees on Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Meanwhile in the Netherlands,...

Postby pchast » Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:42 pm

Kees,

Do you want to see it better on your Cardboard or have a computer picture of it?
If just on the cardboard you will need to trace lines with black ink pen or marker,
as you suggested.

You should be able to take a photo of the drawing without flash cover your lights with
a cloth or gel to reduce the glare. Then use a program like Gimp to transform the colors
in your computer for a more readable copy.
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Re: Meanwhile in the Netherlands,...

Postby smeerkees » Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:02 pm

Hi Pete,

I am re drawing the complete picture, with a couple of black magic markers.
Making some small changes in the proces, and some addings.
The complete drawing won't be finished completly, but gives you a good idea, dimension wise.

I am about half way at this moment with the black magic markers.

When i'am done, i will make a new set of photographs for this site.

Greets, Kees.
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Re: Meanwhile in the Netherlands,...

Postby smeerkees » Sun Sep 27, 2015 3:36 pm

Hello everybody,

At last some pictures of the teardroptrailer redrawing with a magic marker..

Let's see if this looks any better.

Hmm, i think it is.

Glad i did it over with a magic marker for 2 reasons.

1) i made the insulation space of the roof a bit wider. From 2cm. to 2,5cm. (2,5 cm is about 1 inch).
Now all the floor beams will be 5cmm x5cm x3mm (2 inch x 2 inch x 3/10 inch (?), and the walls, and roof space 2,5 cm x 2,5 cm (1 inch x 1 inch).
With wall thickness of the wallbeams of 2 mm, and the roof beams probably 1,5 mm.

2) At the redrawing with the magic marker i also drawed the complete nosewheel assembly, and there i had a little problem.
I had to move the nose wheel 2 inches to the front of the trailer, because i head to little room to turn the nosewheel lever around.
With a little bracket on the existing bracket there is just room enough.
On the drawing the new position of the nose wheel is already integrated.

With the build, i think i want to lower the wall hight (under the frame) some more.
1) To hide the levelling legs in upward position, and the spare wheel a bit, and the storing spaces under the floor (Not yet integrated in the drawing ).
2) For a better look.
The underside of the walls will probably be around the hight of the wheel hub, probably a bit higher.
So that would be around 4 inches lower. That is quit a bit considering that i don't want to mess to much with the silhouette.

Hmm....

Also not yet in the drawing,: innerwalls, door, hatchdoor, tube for the towing bar for a bike carrier, etc....

Greets, Kees.
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Re: Meanwhile in the Netherlands,...

Postby KCStudly » Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:45 am

Nice drawing! :thumbsup: :applause:
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