Tom & Shelly's build

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Re: Tom & Shelly's build

Postby Tom&Shelly » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:17 pm

KTM_Guy wrote:A router table works as a joiner but it needs and offset fence. I like building things like the router table but I needed one and bought the Kreg and really like it. It has the offset fence.

Todd


Hi Todd,

Several years ago, when I bought the router (for Shelly as a Christmas present) I also bought an inexpensive router table from Grizzly (as a birthday present--Shelly's birthday is Dec 29).

Now that I'm getting experience with the router, I should try jointing with the table. It does have an offset fence.

So, anybody, which anniversary is Woodworking Tools? :lol:

Tom
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Re: Tom & Shelly's build

Postby Esteban » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:56 pm

A 23 gauge pin nailer could be a good birthday, anniversary, or pre-retirement present for Tom and/or Shelly. It'll $ave on cat litter. Home Depot sells one by NuMax that's more affordable. A pin nailer is a good alternate to using lots of clamps or weights to secure wood parts together while glue sets up. It's a quick and fun tool to use, too.

A 1/4" narrow crown stapler is useful too. It's clamping force is greater than a pin nailer. The 1/4" staple isn't as inconspicuous as 23 gauge pin nails.
Steve - SLO, CA
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Re: Tom & Shelly's build

Postby Tom&Shelly » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:13 am

In the past several days, I added some blocking and the foam.

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The blocking to the left is the left rear of the floor. We plan to mount the shore power outlet (inset male plug) under there. We will drill holes for that wire, the battery cables and the trailer brakes, all to run up the galley side of the bulkhead, with battery and AC power terminating in the PD 4045 box, and the trailer brakes running through the roof to the front of the camper, where they will go into a junction box with a junction to the TV cable.

The blocking in the lower right is for a drain hole for our (yet to be designed) cooler. We are thinking we may try and build a custom cooler using insulation foam sheathed with baltic birch. We'd like something where the food and ice have drawers, and with the entire unit removable for bear country. A difficult engineering problem that is so far down the pike, I refuse to think about it seriously for now. As it is, I'm guessing we may not get to the galley innards until after we use the teardrop a few times.

The blocking in the front right is for support for the Climate Right AC/heater, as well as for a drain hole.

I hadn't thought at all about these details until we were ready to cut the foam. Makes me wonder what else I'm not thinking about :?

It may be time to sit down for a few days with my (70 year old) drawing board, and make sure we've thought through the major design decisions. For sure, we need to do that before cutting the skeleton's for the sides.
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Re: Tom & Shelly's build

Postby Tom&Shelly » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:03 am

When we discovered we couldn't buy 3/4" thick foam from the big box stores here, but had to use 1", I decided to build a hot wire cutter that is long enough to trim the thickness. Place called Jacobs Online sells wire and transformers. This thing uses a light dimmer control and transformer to take 120 vac house power to something up to 48 vac.

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Since our requirements are for a ~6 foot long wire (much longer than most of the home made units I've seen online) I used something called Rene 41 wire, rather than nichrome. Rene 41 is supposed to be stronger and stretches less when hot. It sure is springy! It's a good idea to wear safety glasses when working with it, in case it gets away from one. I made a bow out of scrap wood

154839

(The smoke is from a recent cut. I have little doubt the smoke is carcinogenic. At my age, it'll probably kill me when I'm 135. We opened the garage doors when we realized our peril.)

The wire gets longer as it heats, so to keep tension, I cut some slippery washers out of an old plastic coffee creamer jar, and used rubber bands to keep tension on the bow.

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Shelly and I each got on one side of the bow. I'd previously marked inches on the frame on each side of each foam panel and called them off, so we stayed more or less straight across. The wire did drag a bit, and next time I'll make a point of going much slower. However, it did create a flat cut (not concave, which would have been a disaster).

It did a pretty good job!

154838

Unfortunately, our frame is not perfectly flat, and wire drug along the high points. I should have clamped it down to the bench before each cut. The result is that the foam was still slightly proud of the frame. I used 60 grit sand paper (finer clogs right up) to remove the difference. Hand sanding took it down faster than my palm sander; both made one heck of a mess!

Backing up a bit to when I'd cut the foam panels to fit in the frame in the first place, I wasn't satisfied that I could make a perpendicular cut with a knife, so I cut the foam large, and then trimmed it with a band saw. That works fine, so I'll continue to do it that way. An alternative would be to make another hot wire cutter, with the wire vertical and mounted on a table like a scroll saw. A short length of wire like that wouldn't need the big and pricey transformer, but could use a brick from some old electronics, or possibly a battery.

Next step is to try and find a place to store the hot wire cutter until it's next needed. Then to glue the frame and foam to the top of the floor skin. The less than perfectly flat frame worries me a little. We will have to weigh it down a lot to try and make it conform to the floor skin. We will also use Titebond III, which should be more forgiving of slight gaps than the PL product.

Steve Fredrick warns against leaving gaps in between the frame and foam, as condensation could get trapped in and cause rot. But how small of a gap is acceptable? I have a few on the order of 1/16" or so. No matter how well we did, there would be microscopic gaps. And then, there are knot holes missing from the C side of the plywood skins that leave gaps. Anyway, one thing I know about New Mexico is that it is less humid than the Adirondacks (where Steve built his teardrops). I'm hoping we'll get away with it.

Tom
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Re: Tom & Shelly's build

Postby KTM_Guy » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:47 pm

I’m with you on the gaps and living in the desert. You could always use Great Stuff to fill in any voids, but if you’re under 1/8” why bother.

For me building the hatch I’m more concerned with dust not water. It’s crazy how much dust we get in the back of the Jeep even with all the windows were closed. If I can keep the dust out no problem keeping water out.

I had the same problem with finding any size foam other than 1”.
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Re: Tom & Shelly's build

Postby tony.latham » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:22 pm

It did a pretty good job!


Great post. I'll file that one away.

And I too wouldn't be concerned with a 16" void.

T
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Re: Tom & Shelly's build

Postby Tom&Shelly » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:09 pm

We glued our floor frame to the upper skin this morning. (The floor is upside down here, so that skin is on the bottom.)

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The bow in the frame that messed up "perfect" hot wire foam cuts also showed up during our dry run, and the cat litter wasn't enough to weigh it down flat.

Shelly actually came into our relationship owning an air compressor and pneumatic nail gun (one reason I married her! :) ), and has since purchased a battery powered nailer for a renovation project we did a few years ago, but I was reluctant to use it here, for several reasons. The nails would have to go through 1/4 inch plywood and 3/4 inch poplar and into half inch plywood, or worse, through foam in the middle, and then we'd have to be sure and seal them up so they wouldn't rust later.

Well, maybe that would have worked, but I chose to cut up some 2 x 4's into 5 foot sections and clamp them down. I wanted a slight bow, so they would apply pressure in the center. Suddenly I've got the straightest 2 x 4's I've ever had in that shop! But all's well that ends well. This weekend I can trim the skin down to the frame along the edges.

In the mean time, I need to read up on epoxy and fiberglass, and maybe practice my nap taking skills.

Anyone have a strong opinion about Raka 350/127? That's what Steve Fredrick says he used, and Raka seems to recommend the 350 hardener for those who don't want to mix the 610 fast drying hardener with 606 slow drying hardener. But they say 350 has a pot life of around 30 minutes while 606 has a pot life of around 25 minutes.

How about West Marine's products? Should I be looking to one company over the other? Thanks for any advice!

Tom
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Re: Tom & Shelly's build

Postby KTM_Guy » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:25 pm

I have been using West Systems for years with consistent results. I looked into the Raka when I started because is seemed a lot cheaper. But I don’t think it was. At least not enough to change. I had to get another set of pumps so I keep 205, 206, and 207 hardeners on hand.

This is the cheapest place I found and have quick shipping.

http://www.discountmarinesupplies.com/W ... _Kits.html
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Re: Tom & Shelly's build

Postby Esteban » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:51 pm

I used Raka epoxy to build my (stalled construction) teardrop. I haven't used their non blush resin, which may be better. :thumbsup: As long as you carefully measure the ratio of hardener to resin you'll be fine.

Counterintuitively, adding too much hardener can cause uncured, soft jellied, epoxy. Not fully cured hard epoxy. One time I added too much hardener to a batch of epoxy. The epoxy partially cured/jelled but didn't completely harden. It took me extra days and many hours of work to remove the uncured epoxy from the plywood skin by using an electric heat gun and a scraper. Then I sanded the last of the residue off the plywood. Which caused me to have to fill in low spots (the softer areas of the plywood) with epoxy thickened with cabosil. After that PITA I learned never again to "eyeball" the hardener to resin mix ratios.

I really like that you can blend Raka (fast, medium and slow) hardeners to customize the working time and the two parts resin to one one part hardener ratio does not change. Some other brands of epoxy do change their mix ratios depending of the hardener.

I used 1/4" narrow crown staples and TB2 to fasten the outer plywood skin to my inner framework instead of lots of clamps. Stapling was faster and easier IMHO. The staples are covered up by fiberglass so rusting isn't a concern. My intention is to paint the fiberglass with (white) marine paint to protect the fiberglass from UV sun damage.
Steve - SLO, CA
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Re: Tom & Shelly's build

Postby Feen » Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:18 am

Tom,

Checkout "Boatworks Today" on Youtube. He has good videos of laying up fibreglass and achieving a good finish rather than mould making.

Also these guys in the UK. Yes it's all boat work but the principals are then same
https://youtu.be/TzkWeuC0yPs

Hoping to make a start on my build this weekend, some inner skins and probably both side of the floor.

James
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Re: Tom & Shelly's build

Postby KCStudly » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:12 pm

I have been using West System on my foamie build. Two reasons: a good friend of mine who has restored a couple of Searays uses and recommended it and their online technical information; and because of their online technical information. It just doesn't seem right to take advantage of the excellent info and then go buy someone else's product.

I second the advice to measure carefully. I a relative newbie to epoxy and glass, I have learned a lot and posted many of the techniques I use in my build thread (although it is more of a diary than an instructional, so may take a bit to find the relevant bits). Bottom line, invest a small amount in a digital scale to save a huge amount in mistakes; use a paper plate to protect it from spills; write the oz amounts of resin and final mix for the most common number of pump squirts you will use on the paper plate (I have 1 to 8 squirts on my plate, but also have a chart with larger amounts); and use the pumps recommended by the manufacturer. Even with the pumps I find myself making minor adjustments witnessed by the scale, plus every once in a while you will short stroke a pump, or have a plug if your pumps set for a while. Don't forget to zero your scale with the paper plate and empty mixing cup.

Michael/Atomic77 here on the forums has also been a wealth of knowledge contributing toward my build and sharing his own Astroliner build. Dude used to build 200+++mph unlimited hydroplanes, so you know he doesn't mess around.
KC
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Re: Tom & Shelly's build

Postby Nobes » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:06 pm

KCStudly wrote:my build thread (although it is more of a diary than an instructional, so may take a bit to find the relevant bits).


lol
but well worth the time
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Re: Tom & Shelly's build

Postby KCStudly » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:32 pm

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Nobes.

I guess I didn't complete my thought on the squirt to oz chart usage. The idea is to help you calculate the proper epoxy to glass ratio so that you don't waste epoxy. The ideal ration is 1:1, so for a square yard of 6oz cloth you would want to mix 6oz of epoxy. For two plies it would be 12oz. I have found that when applying glass over roughed up foam or raw wood I need closer to 1.5:1 epoxy, because some gets soaked in, or, if you are pre-wetting the surface (recommended by Michael for maximum quality/strength) you need to allow some extra for that.

That being said, 12oz is a larger batch than I would mix at one time. My max is about 6oz when doing large areas; mix a batch, apply it, mix another batch and move on, otherwise the mass in the cup promotes accelerated exothermic reaction.

So what I do is measure the area in square inches (width x length) then divide by 36 twice to get square yards, then times 6 (because I am using 6oz cloth exclusively), then times the number of plies, and then times 1.5 if laminating over bare wood or foam. I consult my chart and use the next highest number of pumps. If it is more than 6oz I factor that in to my plan and schedule multiple batches (i.e. have multiple mixing cups and sticks at the ready). I do wipe off my mixing sticks and reuse them, but only after they have sat and cured. You don't want to reuse "hot" sticks or cups because it can accelerate the next batch. Some people say you can peal the cured dregs out of your used mixing cups and reuse them, but I find that there are always a few bits of film or flakes that just get in the way of the next batch, so I don't bother. (I recycle my Dunkin dough gut iced coffee cups as mixing cups anyway, so I have a large supply.) Clear plastic cups are best because you can see what you are dealing with easier, especially when using filler additives.

I try to have a small patch or repair ready to go so if I have a little epoxy left over I can put it to use there. I never just use all of what I have mixed up on the layup, because I am always striving for the leanest application that fully wets the cloth. That is the strongest per weight application. I do scoop up any excess and try to use it on those extra jobs. (Bondo brand spreaders work good for large areas, but for small jobs I like expired credit/healthcare/membership cards, often times received in junk mail... although lately the latter are getting to be less plastic and more paper... the real, sturdy, plastic cards are best).

I also seldom ever have my timing right to do a marathon layup where I can do the cloth application, hang around for 6 hrs or so, and then do the fairing filler and top sealer coat all in one continuous "hot" application. I'm more of a lay the glass, let it cure, wash amine, do fairing filler, let it cure, wash amine, sealer coat (haven't actually gotten to that stage yet), let it cure, wash amine, then paint sort of guy. (It's no wonder I am stuck in "body shop hell".)

Using my current fridge lid project as an example, this sometimes means that a seemingly simple project blows into a multiple step process. It's not just build the lid and apply the glass. It's build the lid; chamfer the edges for the flock corners; lay up the flock; let it cure; chamfer the apposing edge and flock that; lay the glass on top draping onto sides; let cure; trim and wash amine; lay glass on bottom side; let cure; wash amine; lay glass on back edge; let cure; trim and wash amine; fair, cure sand, repeat, etc. etc. etc.

Despite my druthers, I still think epoxy/glass is the most waterproof and durable finish for my style of build. I'm all in.

Sorry if this "clogs" up your thread, but I hope you find it to be helpful information and that it contributes to your decision making process.
KC
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Re: Tom & Shelly's build

Postby Carl01234 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:53 am

I am about to the epoxy stage on mine. This guy did a very good review on 6 brands, including the Raka 350 http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Epoxresl.htm
2nd Build 5x10 Benroy Complete! viewtopic.php?f=50&t=70427
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Re: Tom & Shelly's build

Postby Feen » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:22 am

When you say 6 oz, how big an area weighs 6 oz? A square yard or a square foot?

I'll be using 450gsm mat for the walls and probably 600 gsm for the underside. My build is a slide in pod so the base needs to be fairly tough.

I should add that I use GRP at work for flat roof coverings so I have the materials on the shelf.

James
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