Dual phase tank, vapor+liquid withdrawal

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Dual phase tank, vapor+liquid withdrawal

Postby John61CT » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:37 am

​Bit of a propane noob here, figuring stuff out googling best I can, but the vendors' CS reps aren't forthcoming with answers to end-users with unusual use cases.

​​I will be having a certified propane dealer do all the fitting and installation, have them train us on the (yes I know critical) safety procedures etc, but I really want to know what I'm doing, have the list of fittings ready before I approach the certified techs, or they're likely to turn me down for liability red flags.

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I want to purchase new lightweight portable DOT tanks that can work either horizontally or vertically, and will service vapor (cooker, fridge, space heat) as well as allowing liquid withdrawal as needed.

I've narrowed down to aluminum 43.5

A. forklift-style, adding a vapor service valve

but haven't located a vendor that will confirm the "optional plugged" 6th hole is actually available, port C in this diagram: ​http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=48169&d=1350083660

Apparently Manchester's current models don't, so now I'm looking at Worthington. Or I swap out the center view guage for a vapor service valve, but making that work safely for horizontal vapor service may be a challenge.

or Plan B: same form factor, but vapor service cylinders designed for tractors/mowers, swapping out the stock (I assume one-way) fill valve for a fitting that will allow liquid withdrawal, most likely from horizontal-only, but I could live with that.

I'm hoping to find a member here that can directly give me detailed help with this project. Otherwise maybe someone can recommend a friendly vendor, or refer me to a certified tech in the biz willing to make some calls for me on a consulting basis?

And of course happy to entertain any and all suggestions and constructive discussion, but would prefer to avoid derails; e.g. I'm fully aware of the safety, legal and liability issues, thanks.

​As a side note, anyone know how to get certified in this stuff - online, distance learning, or SHORT courses if onsite attendance required - without being currently employed in the industry?
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Re: Dual phase tank, vapor+liquid withdrawal

Postby Dale M. » Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:31 am

Curious to know why you feel you need liquid withdraw...About only thing I know is that uses liquid is industrial things like fork lifts, 99% of camping and residential and RV appliances use vapor... You are making installation way to complicated by adding liquid to equation...

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Re: Dual phase tank, vapor+liquid withdrawal

Postby John61CT » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:18 pm

Dale M. wrote:Curious to know why you feel you need liquid withdraw...About only thing I know is that uses liquid is industrial things like fork lifts, 99% of camping and residential and RV appliances use vapor... You are making installation way to complicated by adding liquid to equation...

Dale


lots of gennies do, my FIL's got a big one powered by an old Chevy short block. also water pumps. . .

but that's down the road for me, I'm looking at refilling my smaller more portable bottles off the 10-gallons, save trips back to civilization, safety in carrying fewer tanks around on the road.

Not the cr+p disposables though, all proper DOT rated refillables, mostly new.
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Re: Dual phase tank, vapor+liquid withdrawal

Postby Redneck Teepee » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:30 pm

John61CT wrote:
Dale M. wrote:Curious to know why you feel you need liquid withdraw...About only thing I know is that uses liquid is industrial things like fork lifts, 99% of camping and residential and RV appliances use vapor... You are making installation way to complicated by adding liquid to equation...

Dale


lots of gennies do, my FIL's got a big one powered by an old Chevy short block. also water pumps. . .

but that's down the road for me, I'm looking at refilling my smaller more portable bottles off the 10-gallons, save trips back to civilization, safety in carrying fewer tanks around on the road.

Not the cr+p disposables though, all proper DOT rated refillables, mostly new.

I'm with Dale I'm at a loss why you need a liquid supply of LP for a teardrop/camp trailer. Liquid lines (primarily) are for high demands of vapor fuel and when the liquid surface area of the tank cannot vaporize it fast enough because of demand/temps etc.
Also I know it's illegal (Liquid Propane) to run it in a building, not sure what D.O.T. in your state might say in a camper.
I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction, the world will have a generation of idiot's.
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Re: Dual phase tank, vapor+liquid withdrawal

Postby MtnDon » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:38 pm

Some ASME tanks have provision for liquid feed (ASME are the ones built into RV's... nonportable).
Our 6x12 deep vee nose cargo trailer camper conversion... viewtopic.php?f=42&t=58336

We have a small off grid cabin we built ourselves in the NM mountains; small PV solar system; 624 watts PV, Outback CC & inverter/charger ... http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2335.0
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Re: Dual phase tank, vapor+liquid withdrawal

Postby John61CT » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:44 pm

MtnDon wrote:Some ASME tanks have provision for liquid feed (ASME are the ones built into RV's... nonportable).

No, need portable for boondocking, lugging tanks away from the site to refill, sometimes a 2+ hr trip. and for now no autogas conversion, so DOT required.
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Re: Dual phase tank, vapor+liquid withdrawal

Postby John61CT » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:55 pm

Redneck Teepee wrote:I'm with Dale I'm at a loss why you need a liquid supply of LP for a teardrop/camp trailer. Liquid lines (primarily) are for high demands of vapor fuel and when the liquid surface area of the tank cannot vaporize it fast enough because of demand/temps etc.
Also I know it's illegal (Liquid Propane) to run it in a building, not sure what D.O.T. in your state might say in a camper.


I'm not just travel/camping, sometimes stay for extended periods off-grid, plan to convert a container, put in gardens.

No "house" involved ATM, and as stated very safety-conscious, looking for professionals to help spec, do the installs, train us properly etc.

It just doesn't make sense to have to drive hours just to refill a dozen small tanks when I've got 10, sometimes 30-50 gallons sitting on site.

Problem is not the nanny-state regs but torts liability, only in America can one accident drive a small operator into bankruptcy, so I do understand vendors' reluctance to deal with end-users. Ambitious DIYers will find a way though, and thanks for the concern. . .
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Re: Dual phase tank, vapor+liquid withdrawal

Postby Dale M. » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:07 am

Think you are asking your questions in wrong place, suggest you look into "off the grid" living sites for level of information/application you are looking for....

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Re: Dual phase tank, vapor+liquid withdrawal

Postby H.A. » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:02 pm

b...
Last edited by H.A. on Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dual phase tank, vapor+liquid withdrawal

Postby John61CT » Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:29 pm

Clean and sober for 35+ years now, one day at a time praise the lord, I don't go near anything like that.

Yes I've started posts elsewhere, anyone recommend any other good places , as I mentioned in my OP, would be most appreciated
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Re: Dual phase tank, vapor+liquid withdrawal

Postby John61CT » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:35 pm

Had a conversation with a regional manager at Manchester today.

Says what I'm after is no problem, as long as a certified tech at one of their resellers does the fittings and trains me on the safety issues and proper procedures, starting with written checklists.

Once I get my first tank set up and running properly I will post the details back here. But of course any specific suggestions in the meantime would be most welcome, or just general constructive discussion to help all of us learn from each other.
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Re: Dual phase tank, vapor+liquid withdrawal

Postby OP827 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:29 pm

John61CT wrote:Had a conversation with a regional manager at Manchester today.

Says what I'm after is no problem, as long as a certified tech at one of their resellers does the fittings and trains me on the safety issues and proper procedures, starting with written checklists.

Once I get my first tank set up and running properly I will post the details back here. But of course any specific suggestions in the meantime would be most welcome, or just general constructive discussion to help all of us learn from each other.


To refill smaller propane bottles you do not really need a special tank with takeoff at bottom. You can buy an adapter from big to small bottle, put them together and flip the usual 20# tank upside down for a minute or two and then make sure that you are not overfilling the small bottle by weighing before and after. There is youtube on that.
My foldable foam trailer build: http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=61344
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Re: Dual phase tank, vapor+liquid withdrawal

Postby OP827 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:35 pm

This video is not the best method I saw, but the one that quickly popped up on google, just to give you a direction for possible further research - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAE5zXNnFMA
My foldable foam trailer build: http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=61344
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Re: Dual phase tank, vapor+liquid withdrawal

Postby John61CT » Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:54 pm

Yes I've been doing that, but thanks. Challenge is transport & vapor service from horizontal, and I like the larger capacity without dealing with double the tanks.
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