New Foamie--The Hermit

Canvas covered foamies (Thrifty Alternatives...)

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Re: New Foamie--The Hermit

Postby GPW » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:21 am

J’, Very NICE !!!! 8) :thumbsup:
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Re: New Foamie--The Hermit

Postby swoody126 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:18 am

going 3-D on projects sure are exciting/encouraging

adding colour adds more excitement(colours against the adobe background)

pics are great

:thumbsup:

sw
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Re: New Foamie--The Hermit

Postby LostCajun » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:22 am

I am hoping you finish yours before I get very far into building mine.

I have been watching the latest builds with keen interest, there are so many choices to ponder from all of the different builds, just what method do I take and run with, or what combo of methods is more like it.

I am looking at your pictures and reading and trying to make sure I am following what you did?

You, attached fiberglass screen over 100% of foam and used Titebond II to do it. Then you attached canvas, using Titebond II? Then paint? What kind? How many coats?

Did you lay the screen down in one layer? Did you overlap? Did you run screen on flat panels before assembly, did you apply screen to overlap butt joints of foam during assembly? I think I see and read that you are applying sheetrock paper tape over those assembly joints? How is that working? It looks nice and smooth.....could these be faired out? As I am new to this.....I am so confused by the sheer amount of different approaches.....vinyl sparkle is still the best choice for this? or not? Could the whole exterior be finished with a overlapping covering of sheetrock tape? maybe over screen?

I am just ready to start some test foam assembly and coverings....in the next few days.

Yours is looking good....I could go for that.....
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Re: New Foamie--The Hermit

Postby Jana » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:43 pm

We used glidden gripper to adhere the screening to the foam. Then we used full strength TBII for gluing the canvas on. We also used gripper to adhere the drywall tape. We notched the the roof so the roof would be counter sunk with the seams being on the roof. Then we extended the canvas from the sides over the roof so there was a double layer of canvas. This worked really well for us. Then we painted it with full strength coat of gripper followed by a 50% water/gripper. We finished it with almost 2 full coats of the valspar premium as a top coat. A couple of things to be aware of--we did get some air bubbles showing up when the weather turned cool-- that we have had to repair--be sure your glue doesn't dry too much before you put down the canvas. (That was one of the drawbacks of a desert build) Also, I thought it would be a great idea to cover the inside walls with fabric that I did not want to paint. I love the look but as the foam expands in the heat and contracts in the cool, the fabric tightens and loosens on the wall. The 3M spray adhesive didn't work--not heat resistant. We figured out a solution but probably not worth the effort. We are doing cork on the ceiling. Will show more pictures of the inside as things progress. I do have one thing to be aware of if you are doing 12v electrical that I never found in my research. We got a large 200AH battery--the deep cell type used for solar banks. I always thought fuses were based on the amount of power you were needing for your circuits. We blew 6 fuses while checking wires, wiring diagram, etc.looking for the problem. Ended up everything worked--we just needed a 200amp fuse because of the power of the battery! Good luck on your build!
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Re: New Foamie--The Hermit

Postby Jana » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:06 pm

responding to more of your questions. We put the screening on flat in a single layer with minimal overlap. We mostly did the screening to minimize warping if the canvas shrank as it tightened. We did seams with drywall tape for extra assurance since most people assemble their foamies in 3D before they put on the canvas. We were hopeful but really didn't know how it would turn out. When we put the roof on, it was in 6 or 7 sections and canvas was extended around to the 2 inch sides to assure a good tight water resistant seal when painted with gripper. I don't know why you would want to do more than the seams with dry wall tape. We all have to figure out what we need for our build and what is over-kill. Have fun with your project. I have loved building the foamie but it has taken a long time and we are really needing it finished!
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Re: New Foamie--The Hermit

Postby KCStudly » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:17 am

Jana wrote:I always thought fuses were based on the amount of power you were needing for your circuits. We blew 6 fuses while checking wires, wiring diagram, etc.looking for the problem. Ended up everything worked--we just needed a 200amp fuse because of the power of the battery!


This doesn't sound right to me. The fuse protects the wire from drawing too much current from the battery (such as when a short occurs). The battery is just a "tank" of electricity for the loads (lights, fan, etc.) to draw from. If the load is 30 watts, say from an LED dome light, it will draw 30 watts (about 2.5 amps at 12v), not 200 amp.

Just saying, I think your first inclination was correct. What source of info changed your mind?

I'd keep looking for the problem... or it may resolve itself in a way that will make you very unhappy... sizzle and go poof in a ball of flames.
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Re: New Foamie--The Hermit

Postby swoody126 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:39 am

WHAT KC SAID!

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Re: New Foamie--The Hermit

Postby Jana » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:50 pm

We came to this conclusion about the fuse by extensive ellimintion. There was simply no place for a short. The ground and cables to switch were 4GW commercially crimped. The cables tested out fine. By the end, the only thing connected to the battery was the ground, the fuse, and the switch. Every time the switch was turned on the 100 amp fuse blew. This happened 6 times. We had the battery tested and he said it was a really good battery. Our neighbor who is an electrical engineer said everything looked like it was hooked up right. I drew out the diagram of the system for the guy at the battery store. He was the one who suggested that with this large of a battery that maybe we needed a 200-250 amp fuse. When we used the larger fuse the fuse did not blow. we then hooked up the blade fuse box the ground busbar and all the electricity worked with nothing shorting out. Our battery is designed as a large solar storage battery, it seems like it is designed to move a lot of energy. We have 2 friends who are electrical engineers and they both initially thought there must be a short--neither of them seemed concerned about a possible fire when we told them what finally worked.
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Re: New Foamie--The Hermit

Postby pchast » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:59 pm

Bad switch creates a short?
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Re: New Foamie--The Hermit

Postby GPW » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:26 am

Oh come on !!! You can Weld with 200 amps … It doesn’t take an engineer to know something is WRONG !!! My whole House doesn’t take even a 100 amps ... :frightened:
If you can’t source the problem yourself , then do hire an Electrician to sort it out … Engineers are great for theory but not so good at actually Fixing the problem … and trust me unless you’re running a factory out of your trailer , you don’t need 200 amps … It’s nothing to play around with …
It’s for YOUR Safety …. not ours … !!!
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Re: New Foamie--The Hermit

Postby LostCajun » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:08 pm

Jana wrote:We came to this conclusion about the fuse by extensive ellimintion. There was simply no place for a short. The ground and cables to switch were 4GW commercially crimped. The cables tested out fine. By the end, the only thing connected to the battery was the ground, the fuse, and the switch. Every time the switch was turned on the 100 amp fuse blew. This happened 6 times. We had the battery tested and he said it was a really good battery. Our neighbor who is an electrical engineer said everything looked like it was hooked up right. I drew out the diagram of the system for the guy at the battery store. He was the one who suggested that with this large of a battery that maybe we needed a 200-250 amp fuse. When we used the larger fuse the fuse did not blow. we then hooked up the blade fuse box the ground busbar and all the electricity worked with nothing shorting out. Our battery is designed as a large solar storage battery, it seems like it is designed to move a lot of energy. We have 2 friends who are electrical engineers and they both initially thought there must be a short--neither of them seemed concerned about a possible fire when we told them what finally worked.


This is meant to be helpful....

The only thing that will 'blow' a fuse is a 'shorting bar'....let me explain.....on your battery you have two posts....or connections.....as long as something is not connected 'across' those posts....i.e. 'shorting bar' for ease of visualization.....there is no 'current' flow.....all the 'potential' i.e. big battery that you can possibly put in the trailer won't blow 'any' fuse.....unless something creates a 'circuit'......a closed circuit.....i.e. a short......or a circuit approaching a short....resistance is inversely proportional (as shown in formula below)....so resistance has to be decreased to blow a fuse....conductivity has to increased.....and the shorting bar has to survive the process.....a little wire won't survive 100 amps....it will burned 'open'....and become your new 'fuse'....(that is how fuses are made by decreasing the size of fuse wire inside the glass allowing the smaller diameter wire to burn open at a lower current 'amp rating')...this is why one does not do what you were told to do......you have just created a 'whole' system of 'fuses'......while, your 200 amp fuse will definitely survive up to a new level.....either 'all' of your wires burning open....or if you increase the wire size in more places, enough to carry more current than is safe.....everything will burn.....to then create an open circuit......leaving the battery and the 200 amp fuse possibly intact.....

The capacity 'how big the battery is' won't 'let out' a 'big' current......different between blowing a 100 amp fuse or 200 amp fuse.....unless the resistance of the 'shorting bar' is sufficient to change the formula (E = I/R).....E= Electromotive Force 'EMF' (Voltage), I= Current (Amps), R= Resistance (Ohms)

Potentially exaggerating....the only thing on a trailer that will make a different between a 100 amp fuse and 200 amp fuse blowing 'opening up' ' burning up would be to put a section of the trailer frame 'as' the 'shorting bar'.....(that short only has to be momentary....like pressing against a switch and something on the back of it touching something it shouldn't....)

I would look for some evidence of arching.....some little black spots somewhere on the trailer frame....probably under something electrical.....near 'like a hair' away from a connection that is resting on the trailer frame....

More info:

The battery should never determine the fuse size, neither should the total of the loads.....the wire size of each branch is the limiting factor, as the wires will become fuses.....this is why in your house.....you have different wire size and outlet hardware for 15 amp or 20 amp or 30 amp circuits......these are branch circuits.....lets say you have either a 100 amp or 200 amp box on your house.....if you total up all the 'branch' circuits, the smaller circuit breakers.....i.e. fuses....they usually add up to more than your distribution panel main breaker......it still is totally safe.....as each branch is protected for what it will handle, and the 'main' is protected for 'too' many being added as 'load' at one time.....this way 'no' wires burn up......

So......fusing.......fuse size or breaker size......starts at the branch load......NOT at the power source....(battery)

If you only protect the battery.....you are not protecting the loads......but.....if you protect the individual loads......you are then protecting the battery.....

a little background.....I worked with A/C up to 3 phase 440, and 12v automotive and 28v aircraft....in past lives.....I would recommend that you have someone 'who' knows, not thinks he knows about proper fusing....

Now.....why is the big fuse a NO-NO......in the far off chance that a wrench or something 'that' can actually pass close to 200 amps.....should that 'shorting bar' fall across a positive and negative potential anywhere in your system.....it will create a 'new' branch circuit that your system of wiring will attempt to provide all the amps that your wrench will pass....(how much it will heat up).....and chances are the wiring in your camper will 'burn' open.....literally.....

So.....every wire.....whatever size it is....that is run in your camper should have a fuse of a size that will fail before the wire in the circuit does....while carrying the load.....to self check.........do you have such a fuse between every appliance in your camper? or is the only fuse a 200 amp fuse? Does that make it simpler to understand?

None of what I have written is based on code....based on engineering....based on anything you should take to the bank....I would double check it all if it interests you.....this is what I do.....

Craig
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Re: New Foamie--The Hermit

Postby LostCajun » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:57 pm

Jana wrote:responding to more of your questions. We put the screening on flat in a single layer with minimal overlap. We mostly did the screening to minimize warping if the canvas shrank as it tightened. We did seams with drywall tape for extra assurance since most people assemble their foamies in 3D before they put on the canvas. We were hopeful but really didn't know how it would turn out. When we put the roof on, it was in 6 or 7 sections and canvas was extended around to the 2 inch sides to assure a good tight water resistant seal when painted with gripper. I don't know why you would want to do more than the seams with dry wall tape. We all have to figure out what we need for our build and what is over-kill. Have fun with your project. I have loved building the foamie but it has taken a long time and we are really needing it finished!


I wanted to thank you for the long detailed response to these questions in both of your posts....I am getting close to doing some of the same....I asked about the drywall tape being applied on more than seams just as a way to gauge for myself what you thought of how the 'paper' worked...I was at first having trouble with the idea of paper being on the outside of the trailer....but, I guess it doesn't matter....as once saturated and it dries within the glue, paint....its just part of the overall structure, and its not really paper anymore.....I was just taking it the next level....sort of like paper mai che.

I do have fiberglass screening and plan to use it, (one of my thoughts is to use it for the seams) I have some of the fiberglass drywall tape to try....I have had my own weather issues....at first the heat was a problem for me (because of my health issues) and now its the wet cold season.....I just got myself a 40k BTU propane construction heater and we will see how that works inside of a tent....I have to see if I can set glue and paint inside of that or will I have to wait until spring....

Again.....thanks for you detailed explanation of how you handled canvas application....I was looking for how someone tackled this in 2018.....and here it is

I really like the camper you built, and I hope you get your electrical stuff figured out.

Craig
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Re: New Foamie--The Hermit

Postby jondbar628 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:18 am

Jana - Everyone from KC thru Lostcajun has told you the straight stuff. Your electrical problem has NOT been solved by simply putting in a larger fuse. That is the worst thing you can do. The one thing I haven't seen you say is that anyone actually checked your circuits with a VOM. Whoever told you that a big battery needed a larger fuse doesn't know his -ss from a hole in the ground. (I say this with all due respect - which in this case, is none). Have someone who actually knows how to use a Volt-Ohm meter to read the circuit. If they can trouble-shoot at all, they will find your short (and I guarantee there is one). I say this as an industrial electrician with 32 years experience. I know this sounds a little harsh, and I apologize for that, but hearing that 2 supposed electrical engineers said nothing was wrong is incomprehensible to me............jd
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Re: New Foamie--The Hermit

Postby Jana » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:25 pm

Thanks for all of the input. The weather has turned cold and we haven't worked on the foamie for awhile. I will go back to the drawing board and review the wiring again and see if we can find the problem. I appreciate all of your help and suggestions. We certainly don't want us and all of our hard work to go up in smoke.
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Re: New Foamie--The Hermit

Postby Jana » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:27 pm

:D I found it and fixed it!!! I am back to 100 amp fuses...Thanks for all of the help and concern. I so appreciate everyone's input emphasizing how serious the electrical situation could be. Also I appreciate all the detailed explanations and suggestions. I have read a quite a bit about wiring and electricity and your explanations were some of the best out there and easiest to understand. It was really an important thought to think about the frame as a shoring bar. I knew there was nothing inside that could be causing the problem and the only electrical wires under the trailer are for the trailer lights. In the process of sanding the paint off for the grounding connection a little spot of insulation got nicked off the tail light wire and the wire touched a bolt on the frame. A little electrical tape and putting a plastic sleeve along that section of wire took care of it. Again....Thank you so very much for your help!!
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