Shelves made more simply.

Canvas covered foamies (Thrifty Alternatives...)

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Shelves made more simply.

Postby Noc3 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:01 am

I've noticed on ghcoe's builds he uses dados, or channels cut to support the shelves. Couldn't they just be glued straight to the side walls, since the glue is ultimately stronger than the foam? I'm trying to live in my foamie and the weather is closing in fast so I need to finish ASAP. South east appalachia, so its not too cold but its starting to slow my curing times.

If i absolutely need more support than just glue, any tips on clean channel cuts are appreciated. I'm planning on canvasing the interior first, so I guess I'll have to measure and cut out the canvas where the shelves will go.

Getting super close to raising the walls and i'd like to glue all the shelves in at the same time, its going to be challenging for sure!

Here's my plan, its 66" by 124" or 5.5' x 10.4'

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https://photos.app.goo.gl/VWdaodJr4sRLAzyx6
Last edited by Noc3 on Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: simple shelves

Postby tony.latham » Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:50 am

Couldn't they just be glued straight to the side walls...


To keep this in context, I don't build foamies. However, engineering is engineering.

My rear shelves are supported on three sides with quarter-round that is glued and pin-nailed to the sidewalls and the rear bulkhead. The shelves are then glued to the quarter-round.

Image

Image


As you probably know, the wood will fail before the PVA glue fails. :frightened:

I assume you could do something similar with a foamie?

:thinking:

I hope this gives you an idea.

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Re: simple shelves

Postby JazzVinyl » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:54 am

Noc3 wrote:I've noticed on ghcoe's builds he uses dados, or channels cut to support the shelves. Couldn't they just be glued straight to the side walls, since the glue is ultimately stronger than the foam? I'm trying to live in my foamie and the weather is closing in fast so I need to finish ASAP. South east appalachia, so its not too cold but its starting to slow my curing times.

If i absolutely need more support than just glue, any tips on clean channel cuts are appreciated. I'm planning on canvassing, and installing the interior first, so I guess I'll have to measure and cut out the canvas where the shelves will go.

Getting super close to raising the walls and i'd like to glue all the shelves in at the same time, its going to be challenging for sure!

Here's my plan, its 66" by 124" or 5.5' x 10.4'

Image
https://photos.app.goo.gl/VWdaodJr4sRLAzyx6


I think gorilla gluing the shelves should work fine. If you need the shelves to have more strength, wood glue window screen to the bottoms of the shelves, before canvassing them.

The screen, wood glued on, causes the foam to be extremely rigid and strong, while remaining very light weight.

My "corner shelves" are screened underneath and are very strong:

Image
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Re: simple shelves

Postby ghcoe » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:16 pm

I do the dado's because not only does it give the shelves good support it also stiffens up the entire build. I use a hot wire to cut out the dado's.
George.

Gorrilla Glue, Great Stuff and Gripper. The three G's of foamie construction.

My build viewtopic.php?t=54099
Working with flashing for foamie construction viewtopic.php?f=55&t=60303
Making a hot wire http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=55323
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Re: simple shelves

Postby Noc3 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:16 am

I may just double up the walls between/under the shelves, I don't think I want to just butt joint glue because that would put sheer forces on the foam walls and if they give out the shelves could take the canvass off with them.

Dados would be nice but I doubt I could line everything up all at once while trying to raise/glue the walls.
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Re: simple shelves

Postby JazzVinyl » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:34 am

Noc3 wrote:I may just double up the walls between/under the shelves, I don't think I want to just butt joint glue because that would put sheer forces on the foam walls and if they give out the shelves could take the canvass off with them.

Dados would be nice but I doubt I could line everything up all at once while trying to raise/glue the walls.


If not dado's, experiment with the window screen glued on the bottom side, think you will be amazed at how much stronger that makes the foam.

Do you have a heater? I am good down to about 17 degrees F w/o a heater in mine, but I am in Colorado where it is drier.

I grew up in Virginia, the coldest night I ever spent camping was in the mountains of Virginia, along the Tye river in mid October. Temps in mid 20's but with higher humidity levels, the cold cut through me like a knife (was in a tent, not a foamie).

In Colorado in the foamie. I can do temps down around zero, if I use a 12V heater blanket to help me warm up under the blankets. I turn the 12V blanket off after about 20 mins and am good the rest of the night.

Good Luck with your shelves...keep us posted :-)
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Re: simple shelves

Postby OP827 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:54 am

Noc3 wrote:I may just double up the walls between/under the shelves, I don't think I want to just butt joint glue because that would put sheer forces on the foam walls and if they give out the shelves could take the canvass off with them.

Dados would be nice but I doubt I could line everything up all at once while trying to raise/glue the walls.
I do not think that butt joint like that may be strong enough for accidental loads like a good elbow bump etc. Either doubling the wall under as you mentioned or dados or dowels are recommended.
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Re: simple shelves

Postby Noc3 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:06 pm

Well now I'm thinking that if I leave the interior wall canvas on, rather than cutting it where the shelf would go, and then butt joint a finished/canvased shelf to that, the sheer force on the canvas would be totally fine. This for me would be the most simple solution. I realize its not just sheer force when the foam shelf flexes- the top of the shelf sides will see tension away from the wall, the bottom edges will see compression. But if I use the screen method to stiffen them up that could be minimized and small supports could be used under the outer edges to spread those forces out.

Jazzvinyl, is that how you did it? Gluing shelves to the interior canvas? or did you strip away the canvas were the shelf meets the wall?
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Re: simple shelves

Postby JazzVinyl » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:54 pm

Noc3 wrote:Well now I'm thinking that if I leave the interior wall canvas on, rather than cutting it where the shelf would go, and then butt joint a finished/canvased shelf to that, the sheer force on the canvas would be totally fine. This for me would be the most simple solution. I realize its not just sheer force when the foam shelf flexes- the top of the shelf sides will see tension away from the wall, the bottom edges will see compression. But if I use the screen method to stiffen them up that could be minimized and small supports could be used under the outer edges to spread those forces out.

Jazzvinyl, is that how you did it? Gluing shelves to the interior canvas? or did you strip away the canvas were the shelf meets the wall?


Yes...my interior walls were already canvassed, primed and latex painted. I glued the "bottom side screened" shelves that were also already canvassed. Suggest glue on ends, and along the "long edge" against the wall.

Screen really will stiffen up the foam strength. There is a you tube video of a fellow who built foam cabinets for van living, he explains the screen foam strength technique. That is where I got the idea:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJv0pEjvC34


Good Luck, Noc3...
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Re: simple shelves

Postby GPW » Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:29 am

How about using leftover foam to make simple shelf supports that direct the weight to the floor and not the sides … Strengthens the walls too … :thinking: 81732
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Re: simple shelves

Postby JazzVinyl » Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:09 pm

GPW wrote:How about using leftover foam to make simple shelf supports that direct the weight to the floor and not the sides … Strengthens the walls too … 81732


Looks good if you have the room.

In my case, I shortened the main cabin to have my storage area out back, outside of the sleeping area. I also don't like shelves above my feet...so did the "corner shelves". I use hooks up high, and deploy a couple medium sized cloth storage bags, which get completely out of your way for sleeping. I take the bags down for travel, they just ride on the bed.

Works for me.
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Re: simple shelves

Postby rjgimp » Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:45 am

Noc3 wrote:Dados would be nice but I doubt I could line everything up all at once while trying to raise/glue the walls.


I doubt many of us were born with three or four extra hands. If you don't have help during assembly, you can use as many wooden kabob skewers as you like to hold the foam panels together during assembly. Whatever holes are left behind will be covered by canvas anyway.
-Rob


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just as soon as the steering committee gets around to scheduling one!
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Re: simple shelves

Postby JazzVinyl » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:31 pm

Indeed:

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Image

Image
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Re: simple shelves

Postby Noc3 » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:30 am

I've done the skewer method but the skewers end up securely glued into place and I can't pull them back out. Which is fine, I just cut them off flush and canvas over them.

Curious about different ways to clamp already canvased large pieces together, since skewers aren't sharp/small/ridged enough to push through canvas. I'm completely encapsulating the interior walls and shelves with canvas in order to then glue them into place, canvas to canvas, and then I plan to use a strip of canvas over the inside corners, like a filet weld. Should be very, very strong. I'm thinking that using gorilla glue would be the way to go, as the inner walls and shelves are already interlocked inside the outer walls. So all I would need to do is make sure they stay in place while the glue sets- the expanding glue would only push against itself and fill any gaps with ratchet straps around the outside to keep the outer walls from being bowed out.
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Re: Shelves made more simply.

Postby Noc3 » Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:22 am

Butt gluing with GG is working great so far. I am also using 11/16" quarter round at top and bottom off all the shelf edges and "facing" the shelves with pine 1x4" to give a lip on top and bottom of the shelf on the open side. So each shelf is glued to something ridged on all four edges. Very solid, interior wall canvas isn't lifting or separating. I think the quarter round is a nice touch for more glue surface area and support and a nice cosmetic finish to boot. I did also use window screen under the canvas, but after adding the wood the screen seemed unnecessary.
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