Casein Glue and fiberglass cloth

[WeirdDogGuy]

First post so hello. I'm building a foamie and I've been reading through the archives about different glassing techniques. I'd rather not use epoxy so I like the titebond idea. Since casein is so easy to make, I was wondering if anyone has tried using it as a resin. It's pretty tough stuff and I made a test section and was very surprised at how well it bonded to the foam. Has anyone tried glassing a foamie using casein as a resin? Sort of an organic fiberglass???
Thx.Andy

[S. Heisley]

Welcome, WDogGuy. When you mentioned Casein, I thought you meant milk protein, which would never work. But then, I queried Casein Resin and found that it is what products like Elmers Glue is made of. If you perform a search for Elmers in the foamie section or review the Foamie information on glues, you will most likely find your answers.

[WeirdDogGuy]

OK, thanks Sharon. I didn't think to search using Elmers as a keyword. Before Elmers switched their formula to PVA, it used to be casein glue made from milk-that's why there was a cow on the label. So milk protein glue and casein glue are kinda the same thing. I'll review the threads about Elmers but I'm pretty sure that it's not casein glue anymore. The big surprise in my experiment was that my homemade casein glue stuck so well to the foam. Thx for the reply.Andy

[Mary C]

The problem with Elmers is water!!! early on I used some Elmers and TBII put it on some foam and soaked it in water the Elmers became sorta sticky and a bit mushy the TBII did not. This was not done as an experiment but something done by accident.

My 2 cents worth.


Welcome Andy, I know you will find lots of information in the big thrifty thread some and I guess most I have forgotten.


Mary C.

[kudzu]

Just curious how you are making the glue. Are you using powdered milk?

[WeirdDogGuy]

Yes, powdered milk. Milk flakes+vinegar+baking soda=casein glue. I doubt that it takes 5 minutes to make. Modern Elmers is some sort of PVA glue so it's different than casein. Casein is not absolutely waterproof but very water resistant. It should be OK if covered with paint.Thx.Andy

[GPW]

.. yet another “Test” ...

[rowerwet]

whatever resin or glue you use, I want my tear lightweight, fiberglass started life as a rock, rock is heavy, (glass is made from sand, sand is tiny rocks) using canvas, or any fabric is much lighter and cheaper, it also has much less health and PPE issues to deal with. (glass fibers don't break down in your lungs, about the same reason asbestos causes problems, they are both rock based)

[GPW]

Have to heartily agree with Row !!! Fiberglass, carbon fiber, and basically anything that ” lasts ” is a serious Health problem ... Having survived many Projects involving these materials , we ALWAYS wore a Mask , and protective clothing !!! We even cut all our carbon fiber under water ...and did some SERIOUS Cleaning after... It’s That SERIOUS!!!
Now you may think this is a bit of paranoia, but we had an Artist friend die years ago as a result of a large fiberglass project he was making ... Poorly ventilated area, no protection .... He finished the project all right , three months later he was dead... Lungs had "crystalized” ...


Canvas (cotton) , Linen, jute , hemp , bedsheets , all are so much more “User Friendly” ... and work quite well ...

[bonnie]

Yes, powdered milk. Milk flakes+vinegar+baking soda=casein glue. I doubt that it takes 5 minutes to make. Modern Elmers is some sort of PVA glue so it's different than casein. Casein is not absolutely waterproof but very water resistant. It should be OK if covered with paint.Thx.Andy

Very interesting. Would you please share your mix ratios?

[WeirdDogGuy]

Yes, powdered milk. Milk flakes+vinegar+baking soda=casein glue. I doubt that it takes 5 minutes to make. Modern Elmers is some sort of PVA glue so it's different than casein. Casein is not absolutely waterproof but very water resistant. It should be OK if covered with paint.Thx.Andy

Very interesting. Would you please share your mix ratios?

Simple recipe here:

http://www.csiro.au/helix/sciencemail/a ... kglue.html

If the link goes stale, 2 tablespoon powdered milk, 1 tablespoon vinegar, separate curd and add 1/8 teaspoon of baking soda. Done.

[WeirdDogGuy]

whatever resin or glue you use, I want my tear lightweight, fiberglass started life as a rock, rock is heavy, (glass is made from sand, sand is tiny rocks) using canvas, or any fabric is much lighter and cheaper, it also has much less health and PPE issues to deal with. (glass fibers don't break down in your lungs, about the same reason asbestos causes problems, they are both rock based)

I agree. I had planned to use hemp canvas from hemptraders or ebay but I also believe in recycling and I have a bunch of leftover stuffnthingsnwhatnot that I'd like to use up. Hemp is an order of magnitude stronger than cotton and if I go the organic route, I'll use it. I have enough Tyvek to do my build but I'm not sure if it would work as a fabric. I googled it and Dupont actually recommends casein glue for bonding Tyvek so that is a happy coincidence if I decide to use it. I made a test sample of Tyvek+foam+casein glue this morning over coffee and I'll post the results in a day or two. I hope to finish welding my frame today.

[Shar]

Interested to see the results of this...a glue anyone can make, eh?

[WeirdDogGuy]

Yes, it was probably the most common glue in the world before the War, then synthetics became popular. The casein bonded very well to the Tyvek and surprisingly, it dried very quickly. I buttered a piece of foam with casein, layed down the Tyvek, then slopped on some more casein so the Tyvek was embedded well. I was expecting problems doing it this way. I was afraid that the casein on the outside would skin over and the glue on the foam side of the Tyvek would take ages to dry. But that wasn't the case-the composite dried very quickly, perhaps quicker than the other composite that I made. This was not what I expected since the Tyvek looks and feels much less porous that the other fiberglass cloth that I used. I suspect that the Tyvek will not lay as well as woven cloth since it feels stiffer so compound curves may present a problem. I don't know this for a fact yet-I need to do more tests. It finishes out very smoothly since there is no weave, or at least a very tight weave that is not noticeable. Interesting stuff that Tyvek.

[WeirdDogGuy]

So I tried to peel off the Tyvek and the glue joint held strong. The Tyvek failed and came off in a very thin sheet, half of it still bonded to the foam. The peeled layer can be seen in this pix. I started in the lower left hand corner and pulled up, taking part of the DuPont emblem with the peel.