Thrifty Alternatives ..Building Foam Campers

Canvas covered foamies (Thrifty Alternatives...)

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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ..Building Foam Campers

Postby Bruce Schneider » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:47 pm

A Brandnewbie here,

I read the whole d&*mn thing too.
I don't need another project but I have so many of the pieces already and I can't resist the challenge.

Formed a lot of opinions about the contributors as I went along. Most of them were good. I think "Hubby" is the unsung hero here. He obviously has an ADHD spouse. That would drive me crazy. But heck how many geniuses were that way. I feel as if I know most of you and will post up my pertinent information shortly.

As Bob Hope would say, "Thanks for the memories" :tipsy:
"My rear end is louder than yours"
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ..Building Foam Campers

Postby Wolffarmer » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:59 pm

Do you fear you now have some brain damage?

Welcome to foamlings.
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ..Building Foam Campers

Postby GPW » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:15 am

Donna, Bruce , Glad to see you are interested in Foamies ... :thumbsup: Any questions , just ask !!! ;)
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ..Building Foam Campers

Postby Wolffarmer » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:02 am

dhawktx wrote:PS - after reading earlier posts I thought y'all might be interested in this. Google Books has old Popular Mechanics magazines back to 1923. The earliest one includes instructions for refurbishing a canvas covered canoe so that it can last... up to 25 years!

Go to Page 82
https://books.google.com/books?id=zigDA ... &q&f=false


Cool Magazine. I read most of it. Well skimmed any way and read a lot of the articles. That was a failing of mine in researching the library stacks. I would read a lot other stuff in those old magazines.

Randy
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ..Building Foam Campers

Postby Bruce Schneider » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:56 pm

Well I might as well get started.
I have a donor trailer. It was a rescue of a frame that someone else started. I got it for free and installed the axle and widened it to 102". It was intended to be a two place snowmobile trailer for my son. He decided to get away from the sleds and never used it. So, it has sat for a few years waiting to be rescued again.
I will post pictures in the next day or two.

It has a 3" O.D. axle (way too heavy) with Cavalier hubs, 15" wheels, could have brakes if needed. The bed is 112" long plus a very long tongue. It sits at 27" high with the wheels inboard.
My thinking is to make this a very basic foamie. Since this is my first attempt at this type of construction, the KISS method seems most practical.

Two possibilities here:

One - Keep it wide. This presents two potential difficulties. Since foam and plywood is most readily available in 8' lengths, 8' 6" will require more seams and likely more spars. And the wind resistance behind a narrow TV (1937 Chevy) would be substantial. Might have to tow it with the wife's 4 cylinder Terrain, too. The long tongue was incorporated to allow for a 45 degree, full width nose.

The second option is to narrow the frame to it's original width 68 3/4". (don't ask me where that came from. The tongue would have to be shortened and this would leave the wheels outboard which in turn would allow the bed to be lowered significantly. This would leave enough inside room for a Queen size bed. Did I mention I have a Queen? If I did it this way I would attempt to make the shell with NO spars. In fact, no wood anywhere but the floor. (see exception below)

In this scenario, the cost would be reduced somewhat due to less material. The form would likely be a tear drop.

I am debating the covering issue. Canvass and TBII seem to be the most straight forward. I am also considering paper mach'e. The only thing I don't like about this option is the time required.
The exception to the 'no wood' rule would be if it comes out as a tear drop, I might make Luan sides set into the foam. It would be pre-finished and sealed, applied with contact adhesive after the shell was skinned.

That give you old foamers any ideas?
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ..Building Foam Campers

Postby GPW » Sun Nov 08, 2015 7:40 am

Bruce, take some pictures .... we love pictures ... :pictures:
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ..Building Foam Campers

Postby Bruce Schneider » Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:35 am

I'll try to get some later today.

Randy, I menat to tell you earlier: I'm not worried about the loss of brain cells anymore. The damage is done. :?
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ..Building Foam Campers

Postby OP827 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:06 am

I hope this is not out of topic. I came accross this technique and thought it couldbe used to build foam teardrops body w/o wood or metal that I would share it here for a change.. and discussion maybe?

https://youtu.be/-ngcldsRqxY?t=225
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ..Building Foam Campers

Postby GPW » Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:35 am

OP, although not personally a fan of fiberglass , we can discuss it ... ;) It is an alternative ...
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ..Building Foam Campers

Postby OP827 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:00 am

GPW, from the above video I particularly wanted to discuss the idea of using polyester resin over the rigid XPS foam.
The video coating foam with something that protects it from being disolved by polyester resin.
I was thinking what if I paint scored XPS with very thin epoxy (primer maybe?) first and let it set and then laminate with polyester resin over it. The resin should stick well to epoxy primer. That kind of lamination would be more thrifty, stronger, and quicker to do.
Are there any other downsides of using polyester resin in addition to having to use VOC respirator and proper ventilation, I have limited experience with it. Maybe someone else here did build such sandwich already, do you know?
Canvas could be used with good success together with polyester resin, rather than glass cloth too.
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ..Building Foam Campers

Postby tony.latham » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:09 pm

OP827 wrote:GPW, from the above video I particularly wanted to discuss the idea of using polyester resin over the rigid XPS foam.
The video coating foam with something that protects it from being disolved by polyester resin.
I was thinking what if I paint scored XPS with very thin epoxy (primer maybe?) first and let it set and then laminate with polyester resin over it. The resin should stick well to epoxy primer. That kind of lamination would be more thrifty, stronger, and quicker to do.
Are there any other downsides of using polyester resin in addition to having to use VOC respirator and proper ventilation, I have limited experience with it. Maybe someone else here did build such sandwich already, do you know?
Canvas could be used with good success together with polyester resin, rather than glass cloth too.


I've been fiberglassing for forty years and quit using polyester resin at least fifteen years ago. I doubt epoxy primer adheres (to anything) as well as epoxy resin does and you may have to give it two coats to make sure you've sealed the foam to the point you don't develop voids from the polyester. I know epoxy is more expensive, but adding in the cost of epoxy primer I'd guess it's a push –not to mention the added step.

I find epoxy is much easier to use from a mixing standpoint than the somewhat subjective guesswork of the catalyst drop system of polyester resin. I've had polyester batches that took forever to go off and some that go off halfway through a layup. No more. :thumbdown:

Tony
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ..Building Foam Campers

Postby OP827 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:35 pm

You made a good point Tony, I agree. I was wondering about other people opinion and experience.
I also tried polyester resin (lumpy, not as good impregnation, rough surface, etc.) and I prefer epoxy for better control of results. Hope they will come up with cheaper and less toxic epoxy or other polymer kind for foam home builders, but that is off topic, sorry.
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ..Building Foam Campers

Postby Wobbly Wheels » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:12 pm

OP827 wrote:I came accross this technique and thought it couldbe used to build foam teardrops...


I was thinking what if I paint scored XPS with very thin epoxy (primer maybe?) first and let it set and then laminate with polyester resin over it.

It's difficult to get poly resins to set up over epoxy. I've done it where I've scarfed plywood hull planks together and sheathed the finished hull in poly and glass, but it's a bit of a chore. The first hurdle is that the epoxy has to be cured good and hard. I made up my planks in the (heated) shed during the winter and then they sat for months until it warmed up enough to start building outside.

Then you have the blush to deal with, as it will definitely prevent the resin from bonding. Despite the advertising there are no "no blush" resins, only low-blush. ALL resins generate blush - it's a by product of the curing process. No blush means no ambient humidity, but some humidity is required for curing. Some like to sand blush off, but I've found that sanding can heat it up and smear it around. It's water-soluble, so I use a hose and a green ScotchBrite: it's quicker than sanding and you don't risk sanding any of the fibers. I'm sure proponents of sanding can offer advantages of that method as well - to each their own.
But either way, the blush has to come off if you want the poly to stick to it.

I would suggest using a coring foam like Klegecell, Divinycell, etc instead of XPS. I started on a foam/epoxy body but realized I was throwing good money after bad by using cheap foam and putting ($$) epoxy over it. I took apart some of the panels I had made and found long cracks running through the foam in places. Even though I didn't have the whole thing complete and subject to the loading it would see in use, it suggested to me that the foam didn't have anywhere near enough structural strength to work well with epoxy and glass, despite its chemical compatibility. Over time, I would expect to see exactly the same thing in the ribs and keelson of the boat shown in the video. That will allow the glass to flex and crack.

OTOH, coring foams are made for this exactly kind of loading. My next one will be another kick at the glass-and-foam cat, and I will definitely use PVC foam instead of EPS or XPS. With canvas, I don't think it would be an issue and wouldn't be worth the extra cost. Every time I bought more resin, I regretted using XPS for my coring. PVC foams are compatible with both poly and epoxy resins: they are made specifically for that job. Personally, I think using epoxy over XPS is a false economy.

I tried a few different paints and coatings but found that the coating either ate the foam to some degree or was eaten by the resin. I didn't try the floor coating (epoxy) though because I didn't want to commit to a 2-gallon kit if it didn't work...
Epoxy is the logical choice (with the caveats above) but IMHO bumps the price up enough that it becomes a wash versus using a coring foam to start with and eliminating the need for the epoxy pre-coating. Additionally, any areas that get an insufficient/incomplete epoxy coating will compromise the core and you won't know it because the glass will bridge the void but will again crack over time (as Tony mentioned).

The other problem I saw in the video was at 4:21. He split the wetting out of the fleece into more than one session. The edges of his "ribs" of resin are where I would expect to see the fibers break over time and use. You'll see that if/when you get a drop of resin on your shirt or pants: over time, the cured "drop" will break away, leaving a hole the shape of the drop. He obviously did go over it all with resin, but that's a purely mechanical (rather than chemical) bond and will concentrate forces along the line of the bond. The best option there is to glove up, turn your phone off, and glass the whole thing in one session. That would also make the mat he put on the inside redundant. The small amount of "oil canning" at 6:46 doesn't warrant the extra weight (and $$) IMHO

There are other issues, like how precoating the foam with epoxy greatly reduces the surface area for the poly to bond with by 'smoothing' the foam. It seems this is a deliberate introduction of a weak point for the sake of saving a small amount over the course of a build. I'm sure others will agree, the cost of skinning is a small percentage of the overall cost of the build but YMMV.

I also tried polyester resin (lumpy, not as good impregnation, rough surface, etc.)

It sounds like you didn't roll it out ? :thinking:

Looking at the book I just wrote, I'll shut up now... :R

JMHO and all that.
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ..Building Foam Campers

Postby tony.latham » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:44 pm

but some humidity is required for curing.


Are you sure about this? Epoxy layups are frequently done in a vacuum. :thinking:

Tony
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Re: Thrifty Alternatives ..Building Foam Campers

Postby OP827 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:54 pm

I now agree that precoating with epoxy and then doingpolyester FG is not a good idea.
Then you mentioned:
Personally, I think using epoxy over XPS is a false economy.
- So, for trailers too, and if yes could you elaborate why you think so? That is what I am doing (XPS with epoxy) and some other people did before me. I never had experience with PVC foam core and have no idea of prices, but I thought that using PVC core for the trailer will be too expensive, or I am wrong? Rutan planes are built using epoxy over XPS...
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