laursand's Canvas over Plywood

Canvas covered foamies (Thrifty Alternatives...)

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laursand's Canvas over Plywood

Postby swampjeep » Thu May 12, 2011 10:59 am

CARS wrote:Premium - Titebond II Premium - Titebond II

Titebond II Premium Wood Glue is the only leading brand, one-part wood glue that passes the ANSI Type II water-resistance specification. It is ideal for exterior woodworking projects, including outdoor furniture, birdhouses, mailboxes, planters and picnic tables.

Titebond II Premium provides a strong initial tack, fast speed of set, superior strength and excellent sandability. It is FDA approved for indirect food contact (cutting boards) and is ideal for radio frequency (R-F) gluing

Ultimate - Titebond III

Titebond III Ultimate Wood Glue is the first one-part, water cleanup wood glue ever offered that is proven waterproof. The waterproof formula passes the ANSI/HPVA Type I water-resistance specification and offers superior bond strength, longer open assembly time and lower application temperature.

Titebond III is non-toxic, solvent free and cleans up with water - safer to use than traditional waterproof wood glues. It provides strong initial tack, sands easily without softening and is FDA approved for indirect food contact (cutting boards). The ultimate in wood glues - ideal for both interior and exterior applications.


That's why I bought the T3 for the wood portion. It's waterproof, the other is water resistant.
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Postby eaglesdare » Thu May 12, 2011 11:12 am

laursand wrote:Hey guys-

Have been away for a while with a move and switching to full-time work, bleh!, but have been doing a lot of what you're talking about on my build. I'm starting with wood, not foam, but similar, I think.

On a tip from Steve (I think) during Caseydog's build, I got an article from Wooden Boat magazine about canvasing boat decks. It sounded like a cool idea for waterproofing/sealing my teardrop, and I thought the texture would be kind of cool, too.

Following the article, we glued the canvas on with Titebond II...
Image

then painted it with diluted TitebondII...
Image

sanded and painted with exterior house paint...
Image

I love the look, just now need to find the time to finish the trim, hang the doors...
Image

Not exactly the same, but thought I'd share. :) Will be looking forward to the tests!

Laurie
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Postby eaglesdare » Thu May 12, 2011 1:01 pm

GPW wrote:Just FYI, we did an immersion test , not by choice, during Katrina , where my friends guitar shop/factory got flooded for a month ... none of his guitars came apart/ unglued after being totally immersed in nasty water,muck, and who knows what else for that time .. His glue , Titebond II.. that speaks volumes for it's water resistance...
Also being an Artist , I've used diluted Titebond II to " size" my canvases for painting .. Oil or acrylics stick just fine to it ...
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Postby eaglesdare » Thu May 12, 2011 1:03 pm

bravebluemice wrote:I'd like to know more about the canvassing Laurie did.

When you glued down the canvas, was it just edges, or did you roll on the glue?

And what was the dilution in and how much?

I was going to epoxy until I saw this, and I must say it turned out beautiful!

~BBM


[quote="laursand"]Thanks, BBM!

I actually brushed straight Titebond II onto the entire wood surface before canvasing. The glue was so thick it was hard to roll. The canvas just went on like a piece of wallpaper-kind of fun, but we had to be careful not to be off or slanted at all with 8 feet to unroll! Definitely a two-person job!

We let it dry for a couple of days, then painted (rolled this time!) with about 2/3 Titebond II to 1/3 water. Really soaked it! When it dried it was truly so rough and hard that I scraped myself rubbing up against it. Then sanded and painted.

Hope this answers your questions!
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Postby eaglesdare » Thu May 12, 2011 1:06 pm

Postal_Dave wrote:GPW was talking about doing some experiments here is what I did and found out.
I took 2 cardboard boxes and basically painted the inside of them with Titebond II. In Box A, I then took a piece of Jersey type fabric and lined the inside of that box with that and then coated it with some more Titebond II. Box B, I didn't line.
It took several days for the Titebond II to dry, the fabric in Box A took almost 4 days.
I ended up giving both boxes a week for the Titebond II to dry and then I Primed them with Zinser 123, oil based primer. It usually takes that primer 2 hours to dry, but on top of that glue, it took another 3 days. I ended up giving that 4 days total before painting.
I painted the inside of the boxes then with Kilz Casual Colors Interior/Exterior Latex white paint. It took 2 days to completely dry. The lined box, Box A, got only 1 coat of paint but Box B got two coats of paint.
Sunday evening I placed both boxes outside and put 1 gallon of water in each. As of Wednesday morning, except for some evaporation, both boxes are still holding the water without problems or leaks.

The Titebond II sealed the openings in the Box B and is holding the paint. I think the glue would hold the paint a little better if I would have sanded the glue a little after it dried. In Box A, the Titebond II made the fabric rigid and water tight.
I'll put a couple of picture in my profile of the boxes shortly.


Postal_Dave wrote:What I found out with my little experiment was, even without the canvas or T-shirt material, if you put down a coat of Titebond II and then paint it, it's very water tight.

I'm now thinking of using the watered down Titebond II like you'd use CPES.
Take a piece of plywood and apply that to the edges and let that soak in. Once that dries, coat the edge with Un-diluted glue and seal it up good.
Maybe use the diluted glue on the outside of the plywood to keep it from de-laminating.

What do you think?
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Postby eaglesdare » Thu May 12, 2011 1:09 pm

S. Heisley wrote:Nathan:

I noticed that everyone is using TitebondII, not TitebondIII, for this canvas attachment process. Is there a particular reason for that?

Thanks. :)


bravebluemice wrote:After reading a bit, I'd hazard a guess that it has to do with the cost/benefit.

TB2 is considerably less expensive than TB3, and from the looks of things, the the TB3 is going to be more critical in high stress, high heat, high moisture kinds of things. The TB3 passes a test where they boil a chunk of laminate. The TB2 passes a test where the soak a chunk.

Rockler prices for TB2 and 3 are 29.99 and 37.99 a gallon respectively.

Here's an interesting question, could the glued canvas be applied directly over foam as an outer skin? This could save me forty pounds!!!

~BBM


NathanL wrote:
S. Heisley wrote:Nathan:

I noticed that everyone is using TitebondII, not TitebondIII, for this canvas attachment process. Is there a particular reason for that?

Thanks. :)


Not that I'm aware of. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it falls in the "It has worked for us in the past so why change".

We're talking about a group of people who still buy pine tar etc...and complain about any new "fangled" stuff that wasn't around when Ahab was chasing a whale.


laursand wrote:Hillmann, I have this pic of the edges...

Image

...for actual corners, I just improvised. Some could take a fold over of canvas, on others I couldn't afford the extra thickness. Most edges I am intending to cover with trim.

Sharon, the only reason I used Titebond II vs. III is that it was the one they used in the article I was following - nothing real scientific.

Laurie
Last edited by eaglesdare on Thu May 12, 2011 1:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby eaglesdare » Thu May 12, 2011 1:12 pm

S. Heisley wrote:bravebluemice wrote:

Here's an interesting question, could the glued canvas be applied directly over foam as an outer skin? This could save me forty pounds!!!


From my experience, Titebond glues melt Styrofoam. :(


GPW wrote:Never found that ... not on our blue foam anyway ... :o


S. Heisley wrote:Don't know about the blue or the pink. It melts the white Styrofoam.
:thinking: I guess that means test it before you buy a lot of it.
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Postby eaglesdare » Thu May 12, 2011 1:19 pm

Tadlan wrote:Has anyone tried epoxy and canvas over foam? I know it wouldn't be as strong as fiberglass, but it should still be pretty strong. I was thinking of doing some cabinets out of this composite to cut down on weight and cost. Have some testing to do first, of course.


NathanL wrote:Just my opinion but if you go to the expense of using epoxy you might as well do it over fiberglass. The money in 'glassing is in the epoxy for the most part - not the glass unless you get some oddball/exotic cloth.



GPW wrote:The nice thing about the T2 is it can be thinned 50% and still work fine to attach canvas... Just gotta' be cheaper (Thrifty) than fiberglass , less messy/ toxic too (water clean up ) ... The old timers never had epoxy or fiberglass ... the canvas thing seemed to work fine for them eh ? ... and Laursand too :thumbsup:
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Postby HandyAtLeast » Thu May 12, 2011 4:28 pm

I shot an email off to the Titebond tech support folks ( contechserv@franklinInternational.com ) with a couple questions on diluting Titebond. My concern was with if Titebond was a polymer glue, i.e.- as it dries it forms molecular bonds with itself and becomes a monolithic structure. Diluting it might affect the bonding process and create a lower integrity bond and water resistance.

The Tech at Franklin responded very quickly with:

Titebond II is a catalyzed cross-linking PVA, which does mean it undergoes polymerization as it dries. A 5% dilution will not reduce its’ strength or water resistance but it will reduce the viscosity by 50%, the same is true for Titebond III as well. The only situation in which 50% dilution is commonly used is in the making of sizing to fill pores or improve the bond quality of an endgrain wood joint. When used as a coating (we have no internal test data but are aware of this practice) my understanding is that a 5% to 10% dilution is common practice, and this should not have any appreciable effect on the dried adhesive.

Please feel free to contact us at 1-800-347-4583 if we can be of any further assistance.

Hugh D. Evans
Technical Specialist

Franklin International
2020 Bruck St
Columbus, OH 43207
HughDEvans@FranklinInternational.com


Thought this might be of interest. It is also interesting that it is a PVA glue, which is a commonly used type of craft glue, dries clear, and is flexible. Not sure if "regular" PVA is water resistant, but it might work well for interior glueing of fabric.
I make stuff, and it's all designed on Post-Its... the small ones.
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Postby GPW » Thu May 12, 2011 4:43 pm

HAL, Great info ... Thanks for the research !!! :thumbsup:
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Postby eaglesdare » Thu May 12, 2011 5:41 pm

from experience that diluted t2 and t3 does not dry clear. also the straight t2 and t3 did not dry clear on my canvas.

now as far as holding abilities and/or water resistant/proof. once i put the diluted glue, water would run off, when i put the primer on top of the diluted glue, it wanted to run off also. not a lot, but did not soak up.

i know that this stuff holds and holds well. now for how long, that i don't know, i have no idea if it will eventually break down?

thanks for the info, not that i understood all that. :lol:
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Postby swampjeep » Fri May 13, 2011 11:44 am

OK, it looks like all this is great info about the glue for the shell,

what abotu glueing the foam joints, or wood to foam?

I remember seeing Gorilla Glue being used, but I went to HD and seen 3 different types of GG.

Which GG is correct? Has anyone tried other advesives?
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Postby eaglesdare » Fri May 13, 2011 12:05 pm

i think its pat that used another adhesive.

pat g wrote:OK I decided that I did not need a hatch at this time, however, because of the way I built, one could easily be added should I feel the need.

I decided to try the construction adhesive made for foam board.

Image

Image

Image

Held the foam to the lauan very well but takes a long time to cure glueing foam to foam.

In the front for the 2 foot radius I had to kerf the 2 inch foam about every 1/2 inch. In the rear I kerf cut the foam every 1.5 inches.

Image

Image

I used screws with fender washers for temporary clamping force and duct tape to prevent accidental cracking during application.

Image

Image

I cut the door opening and glued in an oak door frame.

Image

I have to decide on windows. I may make some to keep in the thrift mission.

Pat G[/img]
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Postby eaglesdare » Fri May 13, 2011 12:09 pm

my gg bottle just says faster stronger. bonds with wood, foam and a few other things. it doesn't say anything like titebond does with I, II, III.

do you remember what different gg's they had?
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Postby swampjeep » Fri May 13, 2011 12:56 pm

fromt their website http://www.gorillaglue.com/glues.aspx
Gorilla Epoxy
Gorilla super glue
Gorilla wood glue
Gorilla glue
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