adhesion level of myriad samples

[Conedodger]

Mike: I have the video as far as i can go

Missing TB2 on foam after 4 hours and 48 hours
1565.mov is TB2 on foam but after how many hours?
Missing TB3 after 48 hours (I have after 4 hours)

Also to do a full set of tests you need to do TB2 / Cloth on wood after 4hours and 48 hours.

[mikeschn]

Mike: I have the video as far as i can go

Missing TB2 on foam after 4 hours and 48 hours
1565.mov is TB2 on foam but after how many hours?
Missing TB3 after 48 hours (I have after 4 hours)

Also to do a full set of tests you need to do TB2 / Cloth on wood after 4hours and 48 hours.

Okay, I'll have 2 more movies tonight, Plus at least 1 of the missing ones...

I'll start the last 2 samples tonight, and get the 4 hour tests.

Mike...

[Conedodger]

Thanks Mike, no rush

[mikeschn]

Mike: I have the video as far as i can go

Missing TB2 on foam after 4 hours and 48 hours
1565.mov is TB2 on foam but after how many hours?
Missing TB3 after 48 hours (I have after 4 hours)

Also to do a full set of tests you need to do TB2 / Cloth on wood after 4hours and 48 hours.

Cone...

Missing TB2 on foam after 4 hours and 48 hours

Blow off the 4 hour test. Nothing to be gained by doing that.
For the 48 hour test use the 1565 movie

Missing TB3 after 48 hours (I have after 4 hours)

Here's the 48 hour movie. I missed this one yesterday...

http://www.mikenchell.com/images/MVI_1559.MOV

I'm going out the make the last two movies now...

Mike...

[mikeschn]

Cone,

Here are the last 3 movies...

http://www.mikenchell.com/images/MVI_1571.MOV

http://www.mikenchell.com/images/MVI_1572.MOV

http://www.mikenchell.com/images/MVI_1573.MOV

Also to do a full set of tests you need to do TB2 / Cloth on wood after 4hours and 48 hours.

Consider the 1573 movie all you need for the tb2/canvas/wood. Call it 48 hours!

Mike...

[Conedodger]

First I would like to thank Mike for taking the time to do all these tests. Having produced the video i have had time to watch each one several times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eabrhfZ6ZbQ

I think one of the points gained from these tests is rather obvious but often missed which is that these products need time to "Season" to attain thier strongest bond. Most of the tests were done over 4 and 48 hours, however products containing PVA need to season for much longer and as they do they can gain more strength even after 14 days or more. All the tests were single layers and coats and mulitple layers and coats will add more and more strength to the panels as a whole but not to the bond.

The tests do not show the typical stress that would be applied but will give viewers some ideas of thier bond.

Section 1 - 1 Part Epoxy Acrylic Floorpaint / Cloth / Foam
The 1 part Epoxy Acrylic Floorpaint in these tests was designed for use on porous surfaces and is a covering not an adhesive. Its not designed to be used on foam or other non-porous surfaces.

Section 2 - External Latex Paint / cloth / Foam
The Latex in Latex paint is PVA. PVA is a glue designed to bond two porous surfaces together. It is not designed to bond non-porous surfaces, Foam is not porous.

Section 3 - External Latex Paint / Cloth / Wood
The Latex in Latex Paint is PVA. PVA is a glue designed to bond two porous surfaces together. PVA should bond cloth, wood and other porous surfaces

Section 4 - 1 Part Epoxy Acrylic Floorpaint / Cloth / wood
The 1 part Epoxy Acrylic Floorpaint in these tests was designed for use on porous surfaces and is a covering not an adhesive.

Section 5 - 5 Min Epoxy Resin / Cloth / Foam
IMO this test is the most suprising as Epoxy is used in surfboard manufacturing, the boat and Aero industry and as a foam to foam adhesive. However Loctite Epoxy is not one i have ever seen used and from information on the net it is not the best or strongest. Epoxy does have some flex but is best used to form a hard shell. Notice how the cloth keeps like a solid rather than allowing it to roll with other products.

In one sample you can see the manufacturing logo of the foam comes away and i have a concern that there may be some unseen covering of the foam. Surfboards, boat and aero manufacures all sand the foam to a shape so the outer layer is removed

It maybe that you have to use the correct epoxy resin and hardner. Here are some videos on one product.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GQxtaqlAHs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTDFF1Vb_2I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV5t02Lv24s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5hzuix3Rak

635 is also a tested product for use with foam

http://uscomposites.com/epoxy.htm
Some epoxy is damaged by UV and some Surfboard makers use Epoxy to cover the foam and them Polyester Resin over that.

Section 6 - Polyester Resin (GP) / Cloth / Foam
GP Resin eats foam

Section 7 - Polyester Resin (GP) / Fiberglass / Foam
GP Resin eats foam

Section 8 - Polyester Resin (GP) / Cloth / Wood
GP resin will stick to wood and cloth, however the cloth needs to have more that one layer for strength. GP Resin does not flex very well and needs to be a solid shell covering rather than an adhesive.

Section 9 - Polyester Resin (GP) / Fiberglass / Wood
This is standard fiberglass skinning of wood a system that is often used. GP Resin does not flex very well and needs to be a solid shell covering rather than an adhesive.

Section 10 - Zinsser BIN Primer Sealer / Cloth / Foam
Listed as a Performance Shellac-Base Primer / Sealer
The product specification says "adheres to glass, metal, tile and other glossy surfaces without sanding"

However it says "adheres to" not bonds so the product is a coating rather than an adhesive

Section 11 - Titebond III / Cloth / Foam
TB3 is a yellow cross linked PVA wood glue for use to bond two porous surfaces together. It is not designed to be used on foam and other non-porous surfaces.

Section 12 - Titebond II / Cloth / Foam
TB2 is a white cross linked PVA wood glue for use to bond two porous surfaces together. It is not designed to be used on foam and other non-porous surfaces.

Section 13 - Titebond II / Cloth / Wood
TB2 is a white cross linked PVA wood glue for use to bond two porous surfaces together. This sample shows what TB2 is designed for.

My conclusions are that all the products have a bond from very poor through to very strong. The ones that should work do work as expected. I feel the Epoxy version may well not be typical and be the wrong product.

The strongest bond was PVA to wood and that should not be suprising as that is what its for (Porous to porous) however PVA does stick to foam but to a much lesser rate.

Remember that Latex paint is PVA as is Titebond II and III.

My thoughts are that i will add wood edging to my foam anywhere there is a stress point such as round doors, windows and the floor joint. The joints would then be a canvas to wood which works perfectly well and where the canvas / foam sections are the foam would be trapped and as such could not move. As my demountable camper is for off road I shall also use more than one layer of canvas.

[GPW]

QUOTE: " My thoughts are that i will add wood edging to my foam anywhere there is a stress point such as round doors, windows and the floor joint. The joints would then be a canvas to wood which works perfectly well and where the canvas / foam sections are the foam would be trapped and as such could not move."

This ^

[DJT]

Thanks to Mike for doing all the samples and taking all the videos, and to Cone for compiling and summarizing the results. This gives builders a great reference.

[Conedodger]

QUOTE: " My thoughts are that i will add wood edging to my foam anywhere there is a stress point such as round doors, windows and the floor joint. The joints would then be a canvas to wood which works perfectly well and where the canvas / foam sections are the foam would be trapped and as such could not move."

This ^

After viewing all these I have decided on cutting 1/2" ply into 2" strips and building a frame round each panel using slot joints where any cross. I have made shop counters using these joints and as long as you make them a tight fit they will stand a lot.



I am going to make my camper in sections. Doing this means i can always work in the easiest plane and be able to move them around. The ply then allows me to fix wood to wood a bit like a sectional shed. I may even sink bolts in the corners so i can test fit the whole thing. I will also use cross joints with the inside cabinets so it will be structrually sound just as a wood frame and will all slot together like a puzzle.

I will then add the first fix wiring.

Only then will I cut and glue in the foam and wrap each piece, mine will be wrapped so the canvas goes all round and sticks to itself while also sticking to the edge of each 1/2" piece of ply which the video shows as the best bond. I will be using a crosslinked PVA but not TiteBond as its a fortune in the UK. I have tested TB2/3 and the cheaper versions and can see no difference other than colour.

Once i have all the pieces wrapped, i will slot together my puzzle and then bond the section joints together.

After all that i will be covering the whole thing with white 2 pack epoxy swimming pool paint to give it a finish.

Well thats the plan, anyway.

Even have a name for it

"The Foamster"

[GPW]

Cone, sounds like an excellent plan ... I see we're starting to mix the foam and wood for a hybrid build that may be superior to the individual products used alone ...

[Tx River Rat]

5 min epoxy is nothing like epoxy you build with.
Epoxy will have the best adhesion of anything tried above.
The uv protection is accomplished easily with spar varnish if you want a clear coat and just plain house paint if you want color
Cost wise from US COMPOSite is comparible to polyester ,if applied corectly
it covers a lot of square feet .
I plan to build a foamy not as much trying to do it cheap as wanting a trailer that will outlast me with normal maintenance.
This unit will have built in lifting points , so I can have more than one shell for the trailer I built,I will build in stress points for a kayak rack on top.
I will use the peg system with 3/4 or 1 inch foam .
Ron

[Conedodger]

5 min epoxy is nothing like epoxy you build with.
Epoxy will have the best adhesion of anything tried above.
The uv protection is accomplished easily with spar varnish if you want a clear coat and just plain house paint if you want color

Ron

In my post about the tests i said, concerning epoxy "Loctite Epoxy is not one i have ever seen used and from information on the net it is not the best or strongest."

Could you explain the difference between the different Epoxy's? maybe that would help explain why it was not good.

Thanks

[Tx River Rat]

I will try.
We tried to use some of this when we tacked the seams on the kayaks we build,what happened to us it never really cured out, stayed soft and rubbery, wouldnt sand well tended to want to melt instead of sand.
Regular epoxy in normal weather takes from 12 to 24 hour to get to a good sandable stage , it takes epoxy up to a month to cure completely
The five minute stuff seem to never cure any more . you can still dent it with your fingernail after a week , epoxy after a couple days will be glass hard. It doesnt spread worth a dime like normal epoxy and the bond mixng it with wood flour is not good.
Ron
Reminds me of a good hot glue

[Conedodger]

When you read the technical spec of the product it should work but as i said in my other post there seems to be several who say its not good.

http://www.loctiteproducts.com/tds/EPXY_HEAVY_tds.pdf

Thanks for the tip

[mikeschn]

Thanks Cone for compiling all the information into a usable format, and for doing the movie for us.

I have company this weekend, but when they leave I will clean up the messages, and get rid of the duplicate information.

Mike...