adhesion level of myriad samples

Canvas covered foamies (Thrifty Alternatives...)

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adhesion level of myriad samples

Postby mikeschn » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:42 pm

Okay guys,

This morning I painted, and glued and whatever to myriad samples...

I let everything cure for 4 hours, or so... and then proceded to peel the skins off... Here's what I found...

Each movie is only a few seconds long, so don't be afraid to click on the links... (these are quicktime movies, so it's probably best if you have quicktime player installed!

1 part epoxy acrylic paint on foam
http://www.mikenchell.com/images/MVI_1548.MOV

exterior latex on foam
http://www.mikenchell.com/images/MVI_1549.MOV

exterior latex on wood
http://www.mikenchell.com/images/MVI_1550.MOV

1 part epoxy paint on wood
http://www.mikenchell.com/images/MVI_1551.MOV

5 minute epoxy on foam
http://www.mikenchell.com/images/MVI_1552.MOV

polyester resin on foam with bedsheet
http://www.mikenchell.com/images/MVI_1553.MOV

polyester resin on foam with fiberglass cloth
http://www.mikenchell.com/images/MVI_1554.MOV

Zinsser Primer Sealer on foam
http://www.mikenchell.com/images/MVI_1555.MOV

polyester resin on wood with fiberglass
http://www.mikenchell.com/images/MVI_1556.MOV

Titebond III on foam
http://www.mikenchell.com/images/MVI_1557.MOV

polyester resin on wood with bedsheet
http://www.mikenchell.com/images/MVI_1558.MOV
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Postby mikeschn » Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:32 pm

tonight, after everyone goes to bed, and the movies load up a little bit quicker... (right now they are taking about 75 seconds to load up), can you let me know what you think!???

Mike...
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Postby eaglesdare » Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:49 pm

i watched a couple of them. some seem to take a bit of pull power to get off, while some are really easy.


i do know that i could have pulled off the canvas, but since i wasn't trying to do it i reglued and stuck it back on.
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Postby kirkman » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:34 pm

Nice test Mike. How come you did not try epoxy bed sheet/glass on foam?
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Postby mikeschn » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:59 pm

kirkman wrote:Nice test Mike. How come you did not try epoxy bed sheet/glass on foam?


Ah, but I did!!!

See this... this is the polyester resin version...

http://www.mikenchell.com/images/MVI_1553.MOV

and this is the epoxy resin version...

http://www.mikenchell.com/images/MVI_1552.MOV

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Postby RAYVILLIAN » Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:01 pm

Great test Mike and thanks for all the work you've put into it. It definitely shows that no matter what you use it sticks to wood better that foam. The question I have is how much does it have to stick. It you are going to use the stickum and cloth as a structural component of the trailer like it would be as a epoxy and fiberglass only build up it would have to stick real good but if the glue or paint and cloth is being used as a continuous skin for weather proofing it only has to stay on enough to not blow off on the highway.
As I've said before I had given some thought to trying paint and bedsheet over just foam on my current trailer but back out due to worry about rocks hitting it on the road and I wasn't sure how well it would stick. All the experiments I'd done seem to take a hammer blow but anything sharp went right through.

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Postby Conedodger » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:41 am

Nice tests Mike and once again thanks for all you do, but there are a few points that you didnt take into consideration

a) Most of the products you used need far more than 4 hours. Epoxy and GP resin need at least 24 hours. TB3 may need weeks in some areas. There is a big difference in being dry than being fully cured.

b) Foam is not porous so any of the products used that need to be applied to a porous surface will be easy to pull away. TB3, floorpaint etc

c) GP resin eats foam

I think like many, you think the bond to foam is just not good enough, however as its been said loads of time its the covering thats the strength, not the foam. The bond to the foam is strong as long as it cannot move and the only way to stop it moving is wrap it.

IMHO there is no way that a single layer of TB2 / Cloth to foam is strong enough to ever be used as a structural joint, however if you can wrap the whole thing or piece of foam and use several layers to build up the strength where it is needed, and along with other fixing (Bulkheads) a strong joint can be made.

In your tests IMHO if you can bend the cloth while pulling it away, that action alone makes it fail. It must be strong enough to not allow this to happen.

Movie 1552 shows the epoxy on the cloth bending and it should be like a solid board. In this case have a look at the sample now (after a few days) and see if its gone more solid. 2 layers and it should not bent. In fact it would be good to look at them all after a few days.

Epoxy to foam has been proven to work on surfboards and many other items but they are muli-layered and fully wrapped. Most are also put under vacuum to pull the bond together.

The TB2 / cloth is not as strong but may be just strong enough.
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Postby GPW » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:36 am

Well stated Sir , my thoughts Exact !!! :applause:
I believe any bubbling, warping is an application problem! Didn't have any trouble getting my canvas to lay dead flat ...
I did use fiberglass tape over all my seams , mostly as a cosmetic feature (nice edges) but did wrap it over and under the trailer too forming "bands" of extra reinforcement .. a secondary benefit ... Mine has survived the brutal Southern Sun (HOT) for many weeks now with not so much as a bubble or lift ... Everyone that sees it has to instinctively beat on it ... :o No damage although nobody's taken a hammer to it ... yet ... :roll:
One odd thing we've noticed ... When we installed the roof vent , I leaned too heavily on the roof and got some small elbow dents .... :o Looked again and they were gone .... :shock: apparently the foam has a "memory" ... sorta' self healing ... must be the Heat activating it ... :thinking:
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Postby Conedodger » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:09 am

GPW wrote: Looked again and they were gone ....


I thought you was talking about £20 notes in my wallet. I put them in, my wife looks and they are gone, but it aint self healing
Last edited by Conedodger on Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Conedodger » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:11 am

Mike I hope you dont mind but it takes to long to download the files so i put them all together on Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oifIp1mXnU

If you do just say and i will delete it.
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Postby eaglesdare » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:58 am

gpw... that is funny you say "everyone just wants to beat on it". that is my experience also. i suppose they just have to test it to see how strong they are.

all the tests being done are good, i am not saying anything negative about that. but i still believe in the foamies and as soon as i get more money (hopefully within 2 more weeks) i will continue on my second one and i am still sitting here ripping the seams of jeans to cover the inside of my first. i am a believer in these foamies.

perhpas these are a "must see to believe" kind of thing?
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Postby GPW » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:22 am

Guess it's like kicking tires on a car ... :o I never did that ...

Cone , thanks for the YT consolidation post ...!!! :thumbsup:
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Postby mikeschn » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:20 pm

Thanks for the consolidation movie Cone!. Too bad you couldn't add titles as to the materials used in each segment...

When I started making the videos I figured I'd have each video labeled as to the materials used... I never realized that they would take so long to download. And I don't play with movies, so I really don't know how to set up a youtube movie.

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Postby Dusty82 » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:49 pm

I have a question about how you applied each surface, Mike. How did you wet the fabric, and did you wet the surface of the wood before applying the fabric?

In some of the videos it looks like the dry fabric was laid over the dry wood, then the substance in question was applied over the top of it. In other videos it looks like you might have applied some of the substance to the wood, then applied the dry fabric over it, then "painted on" more product over that. I'm wondering it that would make any difference?

I guess my main question is this: Would there be a different result if you were to (using the exterior latex paint as an example) paint the surface of the wood, then apply fabric wetted with paint over the top of that, then laid another layer of paint over the top of that?
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Postby mikeschn » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:02 pm

Dusty,

That's exactly how I did it. I put a layer of paint/glue/fiberglass on the wood/foam. Then I laid the fabric on top of the paint/glue/fiberglass. And then I put another layer of paint/glue/fiberglass on top of the fabric.

I had to run through this series of tests after the fiberglass guy told us that that we can expect delamination and bubbling if we do epoxy resin and fiberglass on foam. Apparently that's confirmed, because the blue bonnet teardrop was built that way, and it's starting to bubble.

So I am looking for a reasonable amount of adhesion along with a decent looking finish.

I didn't include the 8 oz canvas and the titebond II in the tests, and I should have. I'll add it to my tests, hopefully this week/weekend.

So far the only two finishes that look good to me are the 8 oz canvas on foam with titebond II and the bedsheet on wood with exterior latex enamel.

So now I am trying to find 8 oz canvas, wide enough to cover the walls, without a seam.

Mike...

P.S. It's also possible that a longer curing time might help in some of the samples. If I find that to be true, I'll shoot some more movies for you guys!
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