The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby Atomic77 » Sun May 22, 2016 9:36 pm

Those look great

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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Mon May 23, 2016 6:11 am

Thanks guys. :D
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby OP827 » Mon May 23, 2016 4:35 pm

Beautiful work results KC, congrats! About finish painting... with all the effort I put into my own fg covered trailer build, I am thinking of some sort of boat primer and paint, 1K or 2K, just for better durability and looks. Those SS hinges and details are going to be looking fantastic when all is finished. It does look great now already.
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby mikeschn » Mon May 23, 2016 4:54 pm

KC,

Nice doors.

Your build is coming along nicely! I'll bet you are so ready for it to be finished, eh? But don't cut corners now... you're almost there!

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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Mon May 23, 2016 10:24 pm

OP827 wrote:Beautiful work results KC, congrats! About finish painting... with all the effort I put into my own fg covered trailer build, I am thinking of some sort of boat primer and paint, 1K or 2K, just for better durability and looks. Those SS hinges and details are going to be looking fantastic when all is finished. It does look great now already.

Thanks, OP. Yeah, I'm looking closer at the Brightsides system by Interlux (The stuff Becky used on the Sagwagon). At $73/gal I might be able to stomach that, but that is just the top coat. To do it right will take filler (either a high build or West 410/epoxy); amine wash again; then sanding; then a sealer coat (or multiple coats) of epoxy; then amine wash again; then sanding; then the appropriate primer coat; then the top coat paint in at least two coats with more sanding in between coats. Multiple colors complicates things. Latex seems easy and "thrifty" by comparison; a couple of primer coats, maybe even the Glidden Gripper, some sanding in between coats, and any color I want (so long as it is some version of white or light for heat rejection).

mikeschn wrote:Nice doors. Your build is coming along nicely! I'll bet you are so ready for it to be finished, eh? But don't cut corners now... you're almost there!

Thanks, Mike. The end is in sight, but it is still a tiny speck on the horizon. For example, despite building the doors long ago, they are far from done. Now that I know they will fit the openings (though I will still verify swings once I make the hinge shims), I can flox the outside edges; layup the edges with the 2 inch FG tape; and layup the outer skins. The latches were ordered specifically for thick doors, but the screws provided to sandwich the inner and outer latch plates are not long enough, so I will have to either contact the supplier or source new screws. I could go on and on, but the best approach is to just keep going.

I didn't load pics tonight, so will cover in more detail when I do, but still want to report what I did tonight: I trimmed and washed the taillight nacelles (very pleased with these); and trimmed the glass around the roof vent opening flush. The roof glass came out well, with only a very few small fish eyes (...but you have to look pretty hard to find them, so I decided not to look). I did get a little bit of a ridge toward the rear along both sides where the edges of the first ply tried to poke up thru the second ply. If I try to sand that down it will burn thru the glass, so I may have to do a little more 410 filler there than just filling the weave. But still, I am very happy with the result. Either I'm getting better at doing this, or the flat layup and slow hardener worked better.

Wednesday I plan to wash amine off the roof and all of the other areas that I sealed with the extra epoxy from doing the nacelles (3 of 4 side clearance light wire recesses, that little corner of the locker bump out, the curb side door jamb, and a spot on the front radius); and sand off the "zippers" from the roof layup.

I think I know how I will fix the curb side door jamb, so at some point I will probably make a taper cutting jig for the table saw. BTW, the granite top Steel City table saw that I was using early on in the build is for sale at a bargain price for a quick sell, if anyone in the area is interested. Very nice saw with the wide in feed table and slick plastic fence facings. Ben is moving again and is tired of dragging it around with him.

Off to re-read Becky’s build and look at Michael’s filler/primer recommendation again.
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Wed May 25, 2016 8:41 pm

Tonight I washed amine off of the roof and some of the other areas that I touched up, except I forgot to do the curb side door jamb before dumping my water out. I'll have to remember to do that before I do anything there.

Next I scraped all around the roof zipper and a few smaller spots (a couple of brush hairs and a small run on the front radius), rough sanded along the street side, and that was as far as I got tonight.

Nothing pic worthy.

I have been reading up on painting processes. Some folks on the wooden boat builders forum, including one guy in particular who seems to be well respected and provides logical explanations for his methods, feels that the best way to fill glass weave is to do continuous layups, allowing each stage to start to kick some (wet coat and each glass ply), then continue applying neat coats, allowing each to kick a little until the weave is full, plus an extra coat for sanding. It takes longer, especially if using slow hardener, and it has to weigh a little more than a filler primer or fairing filler (that have lightweight fillers); but he claims that the chemical bond is all mighty (my words), that it results in only one round of amine washing, and the fact that the epoxy is clear means that he can always see if he goes too far and gets into the weave while sanding (whereas the fillers are opaque). Many believers in the thriftiness of acrylic latex over there, too.

By comparison, when you read the small print on the marine paint application guides they all call for the use of many system specific products with multiple prep and application stages. Karl is a skeptic and thinks that they just want you to buy all of their products, and it is sure to add up in cost.

Becky did 6 coats, two primers, two transition using a mix of primer and top coat, and two top coat. Each need cleaning, sanding and post sanding cleaning prior to the next coat. She filled her weave with a succession of epoxy wet coats and did a lot of sanding and prep work at each stage. No wonder it looks so good!

I'm not sure I have the patience for all of that.

Off to go study up on how one might remove latex from glass weave should one change their mind and decide to do a marine paint job after the fact.

Long weekend coming up, so I need to get a plan going to maximize forward progress; I think I will focus on the curb side door jamb fix, and moving forward with floxing and glassing the doors.

My buddy Larry had the lid to his ARB fridge fly off of his UT on the way back from the Unimog event. I was following him about half the way, but unfortunately did not see it go. Anyway, I offered to help him make a replacement out of foam and glass, so we will see if he takes me up on that.
Last edited by KCStudly on Sun May 29, 2016 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby GPW » Thu May 26, 2016 7:13 am

“ By comparison, when you read the small print on the marine paint application guides they all call for the use of many system specific products with multiple prep and application stages. Karl is a skeptic and thinks that they just want you to buy all of their products, and it is sure to add up in cost.”
Marine , automotive , aviation , they all have paint systems ... that are coincidentally extremely EXPENSIVE ... That and the fact that paint is just 3 components ... Pigment , Binder, and solvent .... You can match specific components to another for compatibility ... Likely one major chemical company makes ingredients for all ... :R
As a professional Artist for 46 years now ,we’ve used all kinds of paints , and the only trouble was mixing paints (binders) .... You can’t readily mix Latex with Oil base.. Nor Lacquers, with Enamels . You can paint oil over latex , but NOT Latex over oil . Enamel over Lacquer , but not the reverse. Epoxy , being a “plastic" (resin) base , you can paint a lot of things over it once well cured and “washed “ ... But Epoxy paint is probably the best to use over Epoxy/glass for maximum compatibility ... The surface must be PERFECT ( paint hides no bumps) and the area WELL Ventilated , Epoxy paint fumes are extremely TOXIC ... ( fresh air mask , hazmat suit recommended for the painter... ) The airplane guys reported epoxy fume poisoning producing the same symptoms as a heart attack ... Best take ALL precautions ... :frightened:

Latex .... if you work with Latex you really need to be Very patient because it takes a Long time to fully cure ( get hard) ... Several weeks at least ... :o Otherwise if you have to sand it , it’s like sanding rubber and gums up the paper and resists a smooth finish . Once Latex fully cures , it sands just as easily as anything else ... Take Latex primer for instance .... Everybody wants to pile it on and then immediately sand it flush ..... Naa Unh !!!! No way Dude !!! Must WAIT !!! BIG difference for those who can wait !!! ;)

Finishing is an unhurried job !!! The smoother the finish , the more TIME and LABOR it takes ... Artists have learned to disguise any surface finish imperfections , by having a snappy paint job (decorative) that distracts the eye from any defects ... 8) Remember “a Starry Night “ was painted on a burlap sack ... ( I saw this up close ) :o
Your humble narrator has made a very comfortable living for these 46 years by selling pretty painted things to people ... so all this prattle is not unfounded. ;)

It’s not the cake , it’s how you decorate it ... :R Just sayin’ ...
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby Atomic77 » Thu May 26, 2016 2:02 pm

Okay KC, here's my two cents even though you didn't ask for it. As a professional painter doing high-end race boats, there is no way I would do any kind of paint over fiberglass other than a good urethane. I would use a 2K primer, probably two to three coats that will build and fill your weave. It sands very smooth and is very easy to sand. It will take care of many imperfections. Then I would use a sealer and base coat-clear coat, simple as that. Base coat is extremely forgiving unlike other single stage enamel. Clear is forgiving in the sense that it can be sanded and buffed very easily. And it's something that does not have to be sanded and buffed immediately if you would like to have something to fiddle with down the road. Just saying, there's no way I would put the kind of time, effort, money and energy into a project this high-end without using high- end materials. And by the way, we rebuild professional boats for a living and we don't use Marine Paint. Strictly Automotive urethane.

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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Thu May 26, 2016 3:53 pm

Thanks, I really appreciate the input. :beer:

It's just that I don't really want a high end finish on the outside. Yes, I would like it to present well, but I'm not looking for show quality bling, no mile deep shine, no metallic, something that won't make the Jeep look like a pig in a poke (and the Jeep is starting to show some wear and tear).

I will look at 2k urethane.

You don't recommend an epoxy based prime coat, like Inerlux Primekote?
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby Atomic77 » Thu May 26, 2016 8:45 pm

DuPont DTM

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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Sun May 29, 2016 1:02 am

Michael, I guess I’m confused. The DuPont DTM (Direct to Metal) epoxy primer is a non-sanding primer (so long as you recoat in the allotted time). From reading the application notes I got the impression that it is more of a sealer coat and not a sanding filler. Are you saying that goes over the weave filler urethane or before it?

I looked to see if I could find where you previously recommended a filler primer, but I couldn’t find the reference.

Anyway, there is still plenty of progress to be made. How often have you heard this? I got everything done today that I had planned to get done! Hot here lately so I took a cue from Noseoil and got out early today to beat some of the heat.

But first, let’s get caught up with pics from earlier in the week. As mentioned, I popped the church blocks off of the tail light nacelles and trimmed the excess skirts off using the serrated steak knife, cutting just below the slightly thicker area where a bead of epoxy formed on the back side of the glass at the edge of the foam. It was easier to saw thru just the saturated weave leaving a slightly thicker lip at the edge, about 1/16 inch proud that needed to be sanded back to the foam. Here you can see the separated pieces. I used the razor knife to cut thru the middle of the glass over the center hole, first lengthwise and then across. This relieved the tension in the skin, allowing it to flex enough for the thickness of the blade in order to cut flush around the inside edge of the embedded ply flange.
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Here’s the “front” (under) side after sanding the edge of the glass back flush to the foam. This side will get glued to the hatch with thickened epoxy.
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Here’s one all cleaned up and ready to go.
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The hatch was in an unfavorable position for taking a mockup picture, but at least you can see how it will fit the curve of the hatch. The prospective for this would be looking up from the ground from just behind the street side of the hatch bumper, left tail light (the hatch is laying on the floor on its curb side edge).
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Just double checking that the tail light still fits.
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Here’s the roof vent opening with the FG all trimmed out, after scrapping a few drips and given a light sanding to knock the edge off.
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This is the weave texture to the left of the roof vent as seen from the galley. If you look real close you might be able to make out 2 or 3 small light dots; fish eyes. Just ignore them.
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Here’s a shot looking forward along the curb side roof “zipper”.
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Here’s the street side after scraping and sanding with 36 grit on the medium block.
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Same thing, street side looking toward the rear.
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Looking from the curb side across the lap between the roof glass and front radius after scraping the zipper nibs, but before sanding.
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I had switched the hardener pump over to the smaller can of slow hardener, so when I mixed up the fast wet out for the tail light nacelles I just tried to pour from the can of fast hardener (using the digital scale). I got a little too much hardener, so I had to add some resin to get the ratio adjusted back again. That left me with a bit of extra, so I gave the curb side door surround a coating. This really sealed the sill and corner between the jamb and the seal flange well. I could have done a better job filling all of the weave, especially higher up, so will have to hit some areas again next time, but you can see that the sill is well sealed.
Image

Yesterday (Friday) I remembered to wash the amine off, scuffed the hinge side and started getting plastic set up to wet out some strips to true up the jamb. I decided to measure the opening to get a base line first. When we first discovered the uneven gap I had put the small level from my combination square up and it seemed to indicate that it was the jamb that was out, not the door. Imagine my surprise when the door opening measured the same top and bottom. Sure enough, when I measured the door I found that it was the culprit. Caught that just in time; measured twice, three times.

So the fix will be to lay a few extra strips of the 2 inch glass tape in a stagger step arrangement along the offending edge of the door. But since it will all be glass/epoxy anyway, it made more sense to me to do the flox corners on the outside edges of the door first, and then lay the built up “shim” over it. So the next thing to do was route the beveled edges on the doors. Here you can see them leaning face to face up against the street side wall, looking down toward the floor along the chamfers.
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That brings us to today, Saturday. I dug out the same strips of 5mm ply that I had used for the flox dam around the door openings. It was easier to strip the old packing tape off, taking the excess beads and blobs of epoxy from the previous use with it, than it would have been to pick off each little piece. These were already about the correct length and already had screw holes in them. With the existing screw holes off to one edge it just made sense to align the screws to the wood frame and let the strips hang out over the edges of the door, to be trimmed with the router. Most of the corner pieces were found in the scrap bin, presumable the cutouts from the flox dam corners used on the door surround, though I did end up remaking two of them. This is the dry fit prior to trimming.
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At this point the outside was somewhat random still.
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From my experience with the 403 filler, it tends to go on a little jagged, and can pull away with the squeegee action, or perhaps suck down some as the resin soaks into the substrate, so there can be plenty of low spots after the cure. I decided to trim the dam proud of the door edge to allow a little extra flox to build up and be trimmed off later; hopefully with no pocks. To get a uniform yet offset trim I swapped out the 1/2 inch bearing from the flush cutting bit with a 5/8 inch bearing from my rabbeting bit set, which will leave a 1/16 inch lip.
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Here is the flox dam and beveled edge of the door after running the router around.
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After match marking all of the pieces, I took them back off again and knocked the frizzies off with a quick swipe of the sanding block to get them ready for the packing tape release treatment.
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Here you can just see the contrast with the packing tape, which wraps over the edge of the dam.
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As I was screwing the dam pieces back onto the door I suddenly realized that I may have fit them to the curb side door; the crooked one, meaning that they might not fit the straight door that well. I was relieved to find that I was working with the street side door and that when I reuse them on the curb side door they won’t come up short. In hindsight it really wouldn’t have mattered that much.

I wanted to “work down” on the edges of the doors when applying the flox, but on their sides they are shorter than the work bench, so I put some packing tape on a couple of scrap 4x4 blocks to boost them up so that they can lean against the edge of the bench top.
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I clamped that same ‘T’ rig that I had used for marking the roof glass layout (...and reused for propping up the roll of glass cloth on the bench) to act as a loose dog clamp... just a parking stall to keep the door from falling or being knocked over, but not actually clamped... so that I could flip it around at will without having to reset any clamps with gooey gloves during the application.
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Next I went around the outside edge of the door scuffing and sanding any of the polyurethane that had migrated from the inside skin.

It has been being pretty hot round here the last few days getting up into the 90’s in the loft. By this time in the day it was 91 deg F so I took a break in front of the fan to replenish fluids and collect myself. I wasn’t looking forward to suiting up. In fact, once I suited up I switched over and finished sanding the roof edge zippers wanting to get that out of the way before stinking the joint up (not that it matters much, because both operations require the respirator). For continuity I will jump ahead and show the filled edge with the door laying down on the bench. I figured it would be less likely to slump in this position. Kind of ugly at the moment, but should clean up nicely.
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Having a little filler left over, I squeegeed it along the freshly sanded rear edge of the roof glass. Even though I had sanded the lap relatively fair, I hadn’t wanted to burn thru the glass, so just a thin skim of filler. No need to waste it.
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Compared to the prior picture of the curb side zipper, after sanding to near fair.
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For most of the roof edge fairing work I used both the medium block with 36 grit and the small hand block with 60 grit (the small block used on edge could get the edge of the top ply without breaking down the bump from the first ply). However, for the lap across the front roof radius, after the initial knock down with the 36 grit I switched to the long board working in short opposing diagonal strokes (I think the long board has 100 grit on it at the moment). There is still a little low spot there that kind of wanders across the front, but I’d rather build this up some more with a bit of fairing filler, than burn thru.
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And a look back along the street side of the roof after sanding. Again, just a little fairing filler, the 410 mixed with epoxy, will finish this off and get it ready for primer.
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Train. Rolling. :lol:
Last edited by KCStudly on Fri Apr 08, 2022 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby tony.latham » Tue May 31, 2016 1:25 pm

As usual, it's looking terrific.

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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Tue May 31, 2016 2:42 pm

Thanks, Tony. It is coming along slowly but surely, step by step.

Yesterday I cleaned up the flox on the street side door; pictures and report to follow this evening.
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby dales133 » Tue May 31, 2016 3:06 pm

As Tony said, very nice.
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Tue May 31, 2016 9:48 pm

Thanks Dale.

Sunday was a day jaunt with the wife just to get away and do something different to spend some time together. We went to a nice seaside restaurant, Guilford Mooring, and had a lovely lunch.

So Monday, being a holiday, and wet with rain and humidity, I wasn’t as ambitious; but I did manage to get out there for a few hours and get the street side door flox straightened out. Here is the edge after removing the temporary flox dam and washing amine as best that I could considering the rough texture.
Image

The idea of the offset dam kind of worked, but it caused more overrun onto the flat part of the door edge. I could squeegee along next to the chamfer and scoop up some of the excess, but what I found to work best was to drag from the inside edge of the door toward the dam, then use the dam as a screed to clean the squeegee off while packing it into the chamfer. Still, it was a compromise or balancing act between filling the chamfer without making pock holes, and trying to keep the area where the router bearing would roll relatively clean. The cedar doesn’t like to be scraped, it is too soft; and even if you are careful to just hook a blob, because the epoxy really took hold, it had a tendency to just pull chunks of grain out (at least in the one spot near a hinge screw hole… then I didn’t do that anymore).

So the next move was just to run the flush cutter around and see what I got, lumps and all. The result wasn’t too bad at all.
Image

Next, back into the parking stall next to the bench working my way around with the medium board.
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On the latch side the dam wasn’t as proud and, true to form, I managed to drag more flox out leaving plenty of pock marks. Even on the other sides where the dams were more proud, I still had a few divots here and there, so not a complete success, but better than this.
Image

Out came the 3 min epoxy and a blend of 403 and 410 fillers. The 410 smooths out the squeegee work but is not structural, but I figure with some of the longer 403 fibers in there, and considering the location, it’s not anything to worry about. Just a little more sanding after the cure and this will be nice.
Image
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I can tell you that the warmer weather has both the 3min and West epoxies metering and mixing a lot more readily. The West starts heating in the cup almost right away, even in small two pump batches, and the 3min (which is usually a little thick on the palette) thinned right out while stirring (before adding the fillers).

After that I had just enough giddy-up to fit the flox dams to the curb side door, but not enough to bother mixing and applying the flox.
Image

I’ll continue repeating the process on Wednesday.
KC
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