The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:46 am

Some of this stuff may seem incredibly tedious to more experienced body men, or faster builders, and I suppose it is, but for me most things… even those that I am familiar with… are constant learning experiences. You all know me by now, being an engineer and mechanical detailer means that I am constantly paying attention to details, analyzing, second guessing, looking to improve, trying to improve methods and testing materials, etc. etc.

Sometimes the pursuit seems to take all of my attention away from forward progress, but I like to think that it contributes to the end result, and certainly keeps me mentally involved, exercising all of “those little gray cells” (Agatha Christie Hercule Poirot reference… have always been a fan of her work). But as we have seen before, sometimes it seems that all of the long tedious effort comes together in a moment and all becomes right with the world.

Today was kind of like that for the street side door. No, it is not done, but we have overcome a hurdle and I am very pleased with the outcome. Also, it has given me confidence that the curb side door will follow suit neatly, having overcome the learning curve (there is always a learning curve).

But let’s back up a little first. I have hemmed and hawed about using high build primer vs. 410 thickened epoxy. Well that little bit of leftover epoxy I thickened and spread along the curb side roof lap looks pretty damn good, if I do say so myself. Maybe not something picture worthy, and maybe you can’t see much difference w/o looking back at the previous pics, but to me it is very reassuring. This looking forward from the galley. (The close up near field view makes the faired area look much wider than the 6 or so inches that it is.) I'll come back to this another time, wash amine, sand and scuff as needed.
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From the curb side looking across the hinge spar. Because of the way the flat bottomed spar rolled forward a tad when screwed to the slightly rounded wall profile, this area has had a bit of a dip, and the way I lapped the glass for the construction sequence introduced some more variation, but it has never looked better.
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Okay, let’s get back to that street side door. Today I trimmed away the excess glass on the outside edge and a few strings using the serrated steak knife; washed amine; and used the various sanding blocks to knock everything back fair again. This included running the long flat board across the tops of the hinge pads. I didn’t go crazy, just taking the pads to about 80/ct fair; I didn’t want to go too far before checking the door fit with the opening again. Here’s one of the FG shim pads after initial clean up.
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The drips on the rosin paper didn’t seem to stick it to the finished face, at least not that I could tell without removing it, so that was a bit of a relief.

With all of the extra epoxy that I had used, just a bit of sanding resulted in a fairly smooth surface, but not so much as to avoid the need for fairing compound altogether. You know… if I decide to become obsessive and go for a really slick finish in the door jambs.
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I jest. Actually I’m just paying attention to the process to help me decide what to do for the rest of the body. I’m constantly learning.

Right, time to see how we did with the hinge pads. Back to the hinge jig to reestablish those screw holes; and now that the FG is reinforcing the edge I can drill the other pair of holes, too.
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Screws in.
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So we are getting there. Before adding the hinge pads the door would start to spring against the fixed hinge leafs when the latch side was about 3/8 inch (IIRC) ajar. I could close it all the way, but this put some stress on the door. Now it got to within 1/8 inch from flush to the wall with very little stress to get it flush (as seen here with my left hand just out of view holding it shut); still not closing freely.
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The gaps look great now. Just a little tighter around the radius block, but very even from side to side and across the top. (I think the drip edge to come later will be enough of a distraction that I am not going to do anything more about the corners.)
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Here you can see the hinge leaf mated to the FG pad a little better. If you look very closely you can see how the FG pad has a slight chamfer built up were the epoxy and layers of glass tape built up. This is above the top leaf, but the effect was the same underneath, and on the other pad.
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Here I have taken the serrated steak knife, utility knife and actually used a wood chisel to trim the pads flush to the edge of the hinge leaf plate, removing anything that could potentially hit the top edge of the opposing hinge leaf.
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Huzzah! Now the door swings freely all the way thru past flush until it stops against the seal flange. Tadah!
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I consider this to be a mini milestone, and was so pleased that I had to open and close the door several times marveling at my accomplishment. All of the attention to detail seemed worth it in that moment of pleasure.

Let’s take a moment to savor the feeling.
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Okay, the fact that I had just proven that I could accurately calculate the stack up of the glass tape thickness in a layup (close enough) gave me confidence to tackle the curb side door stepped shim fix.

From what I learned on the street side door, I figured since I wasn’t going to try and wrap all the way around the curb side door in one go, and since my “parking stall” clamp had sort of gotten in the way; I may as well secure it better to the bench so that I could concentrate better on the more complex layup along the hinge side. That would give me room around both radius corners to wrap the perimeter tape onto the top and bottom. It also held the door more securely so that I wouldn’t have to muzzy it with my slightly gooey gloves and seemed to make it easier to brush on the neat epoxy with a lot less dripping off onto the sides. I used three blocks all the same length and clamps to space the door away from the edge of the bench.
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After the experience with the roof where the edge of the shorter bottom layer poked up the top layer, I decided to do the longer perimeter piece first, and then work my way up thru the shorter and shorter stepped shim pieces. I made sharpie lines across the edge of the door representing the starting edge of each strip of tape for the taper shim, as well as a contrasting red colored line at the centerline of the door side and another across the first long piece of tape (where I could see them both more easily than if they were on the ends of the door) to help me place the strips accurately.

Here’s the whole shooting match after wetting it out layer by layer and adding the same compliment of hinge pad layers as used on the street door. Since sanding the inner edge of the street side door went fine, just scuffing the masking tape a bit, I didn’t worry so much about aligning everything to that edge, and just sort of centered it all from inside out. You can see how the first long piece wraps all the way around both corner blocks, then the first of the shim plies starts just below the lower hinge pad (on the left in this view).
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I had rolled these strips around a cardboard tube and placed that in a plastic grocery bag for safe keeping until ready to use. Unfortunately they were only loosely wrapped, and perhaps the bag bunched up some, so when I unrolled the strips to use them, several had kinks or slightly creased ripples across them in various locations. That took a bit of persistence while laying up and tending to afterward to keep them pushed down until things started to grip a little better.

In this shot of one of the pads just after wetting, you can also see a bubble popping that I went back at with the chip brush afterward.
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In the above pic the cloudy looking area to the left of the pad is one of those creases that would eventually tuck down; while the one to the right of the pad is the edge of one of the staggered strips where a loose thread has bunched up. The later was able to be tucked down some with the chip brush; any remainder will be sanded out after the cure. Only two plies here to the left of the pad, and three to the right.

Compare that to nine plies at the top end of the door; not quite as transparent. Still pretty wet/rich, but since there didn’t seem to be much benefit to over wetting on the street side, I backed off a bit.
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At this angle you can see the steps in the glass layers intended to square up the door that little bit needed to set the door gap right, and how the extra time spent tending the layup after the initial wet out seemed to help things settle down. Let’s hope it all stayed after I did walk away.
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From here I will clean up this layup, fit the hinges and check to see how we are doing with fit before going back after the rest of the perimeter glass on both doors.

It’s getting there.
Last edited by KCStudly on Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby OP827 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:46 am

..I had to open and close the door several times marveling at my accomplishment..

Accomplishment is a powerful thing KC, I learned that first hand too.
Thanks for sharing your experience here, it is inspiring.
BTW, I mostly used microballoons + epoxy to fair the fiberglassed surface and I like it as it is easy to put down and easy to sand. Should give a good surface for primer, I believe.
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:44 am

Thanks OP.

The West 410 filler is a newer product intended strictly for fairing and easy sanding. The fact that it is sort of wood or skin color makes no never mind to me (where the heck did that phrase come from?). I'm not sure if it is a true micro balloon... it looks like a very fine powder... but when mixed in the right ratio it goes on slick and smooth. Add more and it thickens up and spreads like Bondo. I suspect you are right, though, balloons probably sand easier. I think both products call for a barrier coat of epoxy after sanding; at least that's what West System calls for. (I know everyone has their own thing and that you can get away with this or that... going directly to primer, but the advice I've always heard is to stick with the OEM's recommendations, so I'm trying to do that to the best of my ability.)

Plus, the 410 is what I had on hand.
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby GPW » Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:59 am

“ makes no never mind to me “ ... after all it is SOUTHERN CT... hahahahaha :lol:
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby tony.latham » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:00 am

:thumbsup: :pictures:
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:37 am

GPW, :lol: yeah, that is a southern expression, isn't it?

Tony my friend, we will have that beer... some day. 8)
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:18 pm

.
Fitting the curb side door.
Same routine as before, trim rough edges and spiky stuff with the steak knife; wash amine; and sand the overhanging cloth flush to the inner and outer faces of the door. Except this time it took a bit of time and effort due to the much greater buildup of the tapered wedge and all of those layers. Once the faces were flush I worked the flat edge of the door between the hinge pads and around the corner blocks to blend the overlaps at the ends of the individual plies. Still not totally flat, but good enough to check the door fit again. The first two pics are at the top of the door where the layup is thick, while the third pic is the bottom of the door where it is thinner.
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After using the hinge jig to mount the upper hinge halves to the raised pads on the door, I shimmed the door into the door frame so that I could transfer the locations of the lower hinge halves on to the wall, as done before on the street side. You can see here that the gaps are fairly even all around. The taper in the gap on the hinge side has been greatly reduced to the point where it takes a more critical eye to see it.
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After moving the upper hinge halves back to the jig; locating the lower hinge halves on the jamb; drilling and running the screws in; and then removing them and installing the aluminum shims behind the hinges the door swung freely thru. However, the gap along the hinge side was noticeably wider than the one on the latch side. This will be easy to adjust either by thinning the aluminum shims, or by making new ones from thinner stock.
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The gap difference doesn’t show so much in this pic, but I was more than pleased with how well the shorter stagger of glass plies transitioned around the corner. I thought I would have a lot more sanding to bring this back, but it worked out very well with minimal sanding.
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The difference at the latch side of the door, when compared to the standard gap at the top, is very obviously tight here. Again, a simple shim adjustment should fix this, assuming that it does not result in a bind at the inner corner of the hinge side sill (where the sill slopes up under the door into the transition of the lower corner radii).
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That was a good 4 hrs of shop time and my reward was to go home early and watch the drags from E-town. Someday I'll get to spend the whole weekend there soaking in the nitro fumes, wandering the pits late into the evening until I get hungry or sleepy, and then wander back to the camper for a meal and a snooze. Then in the morning I won't have to fight the lines of cars and people trying to get in. Sure, I might get awoken by the crack of a sportsman race engine whacking the throttle open, but I can think of worse alarm clocks.
:D 8) :lol:
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby Ned B » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:13 am

Looking great KC!

Only slightly envious here... And slightly more shocked, shocked I say! That's crazy talk about going out and , gasp, Camping in your trailer?

Who was it that used to use TLAR as an engineering term again?
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby GPW » Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:05 am

“ that is a southern expression, isn't it? “... Uh NO !!! . Likely Appalachian ... :thinking:
Why , do we write like that ??? :o


Having a cool Trailer means you can attend a LOT of things !!! :thumbsup: 8) ;)
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:59 pm

Ned B wrote:Who was it that used to use TLAR as an engineering term again?

Funny, as I was screwing the hinges to the door Karl came up and asked how the glass stack had measured up. I said I hadn't measured it but was about to fit the door and find out. :D

Seems kind of weird, but there is an end goal here. It is a camper, after all, and I think of Poet Creek (the place) everyday. I have that image of the sun beaming down in between the pine trees making the water light up as it baubles across the stones in the creek bed. Sitting in the shade enjoying the great outdoors and the cool mountain air. Collecting fallen branches and twigs to use as firewood. The smell of thick cut bacon sizzling in the iron skillet with a hint of pine resin smoke and ash from the fire. Then later, lounged down in our chairs with our feet up and a nice adult beverage watching the fire flicker.

Yeah, I want to go camping.
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby GPW » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:04 pm

Keep sanding !!! And dreaming !!! Honestly we tried to warn you ... :roll:
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:01 pm

Not to worry, Geep, I'm having my cake and eating it, too! :D

Unfortunately, I ended up working late tonight. Spent all day inside a mixer, and got silicone sealant all over my hands, to boot. Everyone knows that silicone and bodywork don't mix. I scrubbed with hand cleaner but can still feel and smell a slight residue on them, and I probably have it on my clothes, too. No progress tonight; heading home to have a much needed shower and change of clothes.

Imagine standing on the blade of an auger with most of your weight only on one foot, leaning over a pit, hanging on with one hand, and trying to do mechanical work with just the other hand. Now climb around back and forth foot to hand, hand to foot, like a monkey in a cage trying to reach everything. :shock: :? :FNP

I feel like, "I just flew in from Chicago, and boy are my arms tired."
Last edited by KCStudly on Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby GPW » Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:30 am

:thumbsup: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby KCStudly » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:55 pm

Tonight I made new shims for the curb side door hinges. 1/16 thk SS this time. That centered the door up nicely and the corner radii look good, too. Took a pic of the final fit that I will show with the next camera dump (although I wonder if the nuances are really perceptible… i.e. worth showing).

Then I got out one of the door latches and I took some measurements of the latch plate. Not sure if that is the proper terminology, but it is the plate that closes off the opening in the edge of the door where the latch and dead bolts stick out. The ones that came with the TriMark latch assemblies are thin and not particularly bright plated steel. The other thing I’m not sure I like about the stock plates is that they only screw to the latch mechanism and don’t actually fasten to the edge of the door. So I sketched up all of the particulars and will make my own out of SS.

The latches didn’t come with strike plates, and somehow I doubt that I will be able to find exactly what I need, so will likely end up making those, too. Those will take a bit more effort to form the spoon or curved tab that forces the bolt in against the latch spring when struck.

Another thing to note is that there really aren't any seals visible within the latch mechanisms. When the paddle is pulled you can see straight thru in places from outside in, and it is not clear if the paddle hinge pins (which pass thru the die cast bodies of the mounts) have any o-ring seals (I doubt it). What this means is that there is a potential for water to pass thru the latch and get inside of the cabin, or at least inside the latch cavity in the door. Now I'm pretty sure that the latches are designed to preclude this, but I am just not seeing how it can be absolute. So as a minimum I will seal the latch cavities in the doors with epoxy, but I might also consider adding a weep hole at the bottom under the latch body flange. That way if any moisture does get into the space between the inner and outer paddles, it will have a way to get back out.

Any thoughts or experience with this? Anybody out there that has seen water passing thru their latches or getting inside their doors this way?
KC
My Build: The Poet Creek Express Hybrid Foamie

Poet Creek Or Bust
Engineering the TLAR way - "That Looks About Right"
TnTTT ORIGINAL 200A LANTERN CLUB = "The 200A Gang"
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Re: The Poet Creek Express - Foamie Hybrid

Postby aggie79 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:06 am

KCStudly wrote:Another thing to note is that there really aren't any seals visible within the latch mechanisms. When the paddle is pulled you can see straight thru in places from outside in, and it is not clear if the paddle hinge pins (which pass thru the die cast bodies of the mounts) have any o-ring seals (I doubt it). What this means is that there is a potential for water to pass thru the latch and get inside of the cabin, or at least inside the latch cavity in the door. Now I'm pretty sure that the latches are designed to preclude this, but I am just not seeing how it can be absolute. So as a minimum I will seal the latch cavities in the doors with epoxy, but I might also consider adding a weep hole at the bottom under the latch body flange. That way if any moisture does get into the space between the inner and outer paddles, it will have a way to get back out.

Any thoughts or experience with this? Anybody out there that has seen water passing thru their latches or getting inside their doors this way?


KC,

I have the Tri-Mark latches and haven't had any problems with water intrusion even though we've camped and driven in some pretty strong downpours. I can't recall if there was a gasket seal - I believe there was - but in addition to that I applied a very light bead of sealant before attaching the latches.

Take care,
Tom
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