YAF (Yet Another Foamie) project?

Canvas covered foamies (Thrifty Alternatives...)

Moderator: eaglesdare

Re: YAF (Yet Another Foamie) project?

Postby TeriL » Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:57 am

by mezmo » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:52 am
Your design looks to me to be somewhat of
a cross between this approach and the various iterations of Mike's
Winter Warrior design that have been done on here.

http://www.mikenchell.com/winterwarriorpage.html


Hi Mezmo,

I was inaspired by the Winter Warrior and others.

And here is another "test-bed" build that may be of help to finalize your design:

Tier Drop 50 Experimental Testbed
http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=56232


Yes, Wizard beat you to it. Again, I was inspired by his design too.

And here's a nice Australian Off-Road design that looks quite similar to your
proposed design:
http://www.innovan.com.au/


Holy cow! That's big. Notice the huge gas springs or hydraulic cylinders to lift the roof.

I'm aiming for low although my TV is a '88 Toyota 4x4 with a Glastite cap. The Glastite cap has a raised section but is just a bit too low and more room would be nice. I've spent many nights in it car camping but more comfort as I get more mature is desired. :D

I was just looking at some pics of the Odyssey Trailer and admired how it lifted up at the front and was also hinged for more headroom at the rear. I wonder how hard it would be to lift the front up and then hinge the roof. Ideas ...

-- Teri
Our reach should exceed our grasp or what is a heaven for? -- Marshall McLuhan
User avatar
TeriL
Teardrop Advisor
 
Posts: 88
Images: 17
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: Central Texas

Re: YAF (Yet Another Foamie) project?

Postby mezmo » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:21 am

Hi TeriL,

I like the idea of a simple lift roof, but that statement is much easier
to make than actually designing and building one. [I guess that is
preaching to the choir eh?] Here are some other links for ideas or
examples for you to visit if you so choose:

These first ones have what I call a "Zig-N-Zag" lift roof approach.

Here's an off-road camper from Australia that uses this double-
lift roof approach:
http://www.brix.com.au/
http://www.brix.com.au/index.php/z-camp ... setup.html
And here is a South African PU camper using that approach:
http://www.safaricampers.co.za/Default.aspx
Both of those have canvas infills for the sidewalls. But I see no reason why
such sidewalls shouldn't be solid, as these links show:

An expedition vehicle:
http://www.offroad-schmiede.com/index.php/hubkabinen - click on the
gallery pics to view them larger.
Here's a few pages of a forum that appears to discuss the original design and build
of this style roof on one expedition vehicle. It's in German, "but the pics aren't"
- Ha!, [I use Chrome as a browser and that has a translation choice on the right click]: http://www.viermalvier.de/ubb_portal/ub ... onzept_mal
I believe it said, somewhere in the text, that the larger/main lifting roof was raised by
electric actuators [not necessarily that exotic now-a-days] and the secondary lift roof
was raised by gas struts. I've seen more pics of this roof design on expedition vehicles
elsewhere on the web, but can't locate any other pics at the moment.
And here is a link to the American Chalet A-Frame folding camper that has a solid wall front
"dormer", which is basically the same idea or design:
http://www.chaletrv.com/folding-trailers/xl-1935
The photos show inside views of it.

There is the view 'out there' that folding, telescoping, and expanding, etc., designs aren't
really worth it as they are more complicated and more expensive to build and very hard
to seal against water leaks. It is much easier and less expensive to just build a unitary
type structure/body. I can see that argument or view very easily, but designing to one's
own specific needs may not be met by that, admittedly very K.I.S.S., approach. So
design on and show how it is possible to get it done and meet your needs and vision.
A solid wall lightweight TTT like this should be very possible, especially using aluminum
square tube or small dimension wood members and foam and lightweight skins using a
composite-style building method. Using foam-core panels with perimeter framing should
be a good approach as the edges need a solid core to attach to each other and mount
any piano style hinges etc.. [See Linuxmanxxx's build posts.]



Cheers,
Norm/mezmo
If you have a house - you have a hobby.
User avatar
mezmo
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1817
Images: 194
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:11 am
Location: Columbia, SC

Re: YAF (Yet Another Foamie) project?

Postby TeriL » Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:21 am

by mezmo » 25 Apr 2014, 01:21
Hi TeriL,

I like the idea of a simple lift roof, but that statement is much easier
to make than actually designing and building one. [I guess that is
preaching to the choir eh?] Here are some other links for ideas or
examples for you to visit if you so choose:

These first ones have what I call a "Zig-N-Zag" lift roof approach.
...


Hi Mezmo,

Designing a lifting roof isn't a problem for me but construction might reveal some issues with our "standard" Foamie construction. Most (or all) of the hinged roof builds on this forum have been plywood or such. I want a Foamie for lightness and insulation. Having a fixed roof standy would just be a lot higher than I'd like to tow.

Thanks for the links. Interesting designs. The German one was not on your usual truck. Looks a lot like a Mercedes Benz UniMog. The "Chalet" or it's sister, the "Alpine" was one of my first inspirations. Having spent too much time in tents, I'm not inclined to have canvas sides.

Actually, after thinking about it for a while, I decided a double lift roof is more trouble and against my K.I.S.S. design philosophy. I'm back to the simple single hinge line roof. I think something you can set up quick when arriving at your site with a threatening storm is best so you can duck in fast. Less work too!

I decided my original design's nose was too low which causes reduced headroom. It was about half way up from the stationary part. I raised it to 3/4th of the height (4'). Not as "aero", but more practical. Still have the curved side to front walls at the front.

Lifting the roof if it is light enough, can be just done by "armstrong" (muscle). If heavier, some lifting mechanism is needed. A pole with a compound pulley arrangement could be a simple lifter. A winch if it's very heavy. I'm leaning toward the pole and pulleys if it's heavier than I'd prefer.

Here's my latest plan (again without windows):

119472

I know it doesn't look a lot different from my version 0.0 as just the nose is higher. I have a design for some simple sliding seals between the roof section's walls and the stationary walls to help keep out water in the travel mode. They also should stop air infiltration if it's cold in the camping mode. Mosquitos and bugs too when they're out! A gasket seal at the top of the stationary section would be a second line of defence while traveling.

I'll have to determine the gap between the fixed and sliding walls. Part depends on my construction skills and how much room is needed for my sliding seals.

Still trying to figure out the rear wall and door. A hinged door would be the simplest but as I'm thinking of putting the galley in a roll out section, interference with the cook and someone using the door is a potential problem. It would roll out onto the balcony from a small door in the fixed rear wall. The door could swing inward but Murphy's Law says it is inevitable something would block it. :BE

The balcony as drawn would only be about 3' long. I'm wondering if a double fold balcony to increase the area would be worth the extra complications in setting it up. Of course, sitting in a lounge chair on the balcony sipping a glass of wine or a bottle beer, one might forget the problems of setting it up. :beer: :wine:

-- Teri
Our reach should exceed our grasp or what is a heaven for? -- Marshall McLuhan
User avatar
TeriL
Teardrop Advisor
 
Posts: 88
Images: 17
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: Central Texas
Top

Re: YAF (Yet Another Foamie) project?

Postby TeriL » Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:33 pm

by mezmo » 25 Apr 2014, 01:21
...
There is the view 'out there' that folding, telescoping, and expanding, etc., designs aren't
really worth it as they are more complicated and more expensive to build and very hard
to seal against water leaks. It is much easier and less expensive to just build a unitary
type structure/body. I can see that argument or view very easily, but designing to one's
own specific needs may not be met by that, admittedly very K.I.S.S., approach. So
design on and show how it is possible to get it done and meet your needs and vision.


Hi Mezmo,

I agree that a lifting roof is more trouble to design but:

"Our reach should exceed our grasp or what is a heaven for?" -- Marshall McLuhan

As it was discussed some time ago by KCStudly and GPW regarding building something yourself instead of just buying it ... because I can! I find designing things is but one of my hobby and mental exercise. I despise being a slave to just being just a consumer. I hate things that can't be repaired.

I suspect most of the people on this forum are of a similar mindset as many here probably have or can get the money to just buy a trailer but want to know how to build one.

A solid wall lightweight TTT like this should be very possible, especially using aluminum
square tube or small dimension wood members and foam and lightweight skins using a
composite-style building method. Using foam-core panels with perimeter framing should
be a good approach as the edges need a solid core to attach to each other and mount
any piano style hinges etc.. [See Linuxmanxxx's build posts.]


The Foamie with minimal framing (either wood or metal) is similar to the way most aircraft are built today. The strength is in the shell. Yes, it's more vulnerable to dings and such but lightweight is desirable to me. I started my college degree in aerospace at the height of the space race but switched to mechanical when the race was over (along with the jobs). Before then in high school, I was facinated by the emergence of monocoque chassis race cars by Colin Chapman, et al.

As an stress analysis engineer, I understand intuitively that a sandwich or composite requires load transfer points at attachment points and high stress locations. I suppose this is not something most non-engineers have a feeling for but it jumps out at me. A good way to visualize stress points is to build a flimsy cardboard/paper model and then twist and bend it. I highly recommend this.

Like GPW, I see wood as a rot starter medium (for trailers) unless extraordinary effort is used to seal it. Besides, unless you want to pay an extreme premium for marine plywood, the "stuff" at the 'Borgs' is cr*p! I will use some in the floor as a foam sandwich but I'll buy mine at a real wood supplier. Some walnut veneer ply for the interior floor (top side ply) would look really nice. The edges will be sealed with epoxy and fiberglass tape and the remainder soaked in GPW's secret sauce until it absorbs no more. I sealed a wood surround around my kitchen sink with his sauce and so far have no sign of any wood swelling or any other deterioration.

-- Teri
Our reach should exceed our grasp or what is a heaven for? -- Marshall McLuhan
User avatar
TeriL
Teardrop Advisor
 
Posts: 88
Images: 17
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: Central Texas
Top

Re: YAF (Yet Another Foamie) project?

Postby tsmyth » Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:47 pm

I am building a hi- lo trailer from an old popup trailer using the raising mechanism from the donner trailer.
Look at my gallery for pictures. The top and sides ,made from foam ,wood framing ,and elect conduit for bracing, weights in
at 185 lbs. Canvas and paint has been done yet.
tsmyth
User avatar
tsmyth
Teardrop Builder
 
Posts: 32
Images: 28
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:20 am
Location: Port Richey, FL
Top

Re: YAF (Yet Another Foamie) project?

Postby TeriL » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:45 am

by tsmyth » 27 Apr 2014, 15:47
I am building a hi- lo trailer from an old popup trailer using the raising mechanism from the donner trailer.
Look at my gallery for pictures. The top and sides ,made from foam ,wood framing ,and elect conduit for bracing, weights in
at 185 lbs. Canvas and paint has been done yet.
tsmyth


Hi Tsmyth,

An interesting rebuild.

I have seen similar commercial travel trailers. Once at the Big Bend National Park main visitor's center. I didn't get the name but it was big (in it's travel mode).

I looked at the mechanisms on a web site. Moving four uniformly is do-able but a lot more complex than I'd like. I fear old man Murphy! For my lightweight Foamie design, the roof shouldn't really require more than a single jacking point.

-- Teri
Our reach should exceed our grasp or what is a heaven for? -- Marshall McLuhan
User avatar
TeriL
Teardrop Advisor
 
Posts: 88
Images: 17
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: Central Texas
Top

Re: YAF (Yet Another Foamie) project?

Postby TeriL » Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:46 am

I've been doing some more thinking and designing. :lol:
I put in some windows and decided the rear door should swing inward to minimize interference with the cook.

Travel side view
119642

Camping top quarter view
119638

Camping side view. Note the double fold read deck. The galley slides out for travel or in bear country.
119639

Camping rear top quartering view. Better view of the rear sections and door. The door hinge is near the wall. I figure a square steel frame for the door might be necessary. Wood would work but it would need to be bigger than steel tubing.
119641

Camping interior section view. This shows a cross section with the interior. The queen bed is shown in the sofa mode. A fabric hinge would be at the junction of each section to keep everything together.
119640

What do you think?

-- Teri
Our reach should exceed our grasp or what is a heaven for? -- Marshall McLuhan
User avatar
TeriL
Teardrop Advisor
 
Posts: 88
Images: 17
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: Central Texas
Top

Re: YAF (Yet Another Foamie) project?

Postby mezmo » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:17 am

Hi Teri,

What is the 'nominal' size of the trailer's body ?
I don't think that's been mentioned yet. 5x10 ? 6x11 ? etc.
Knowing that would have a big effect on everyone's
comments.

Cheers,
Norm/mezmo
If you have a house - you have a hobby.
User avatar
mezmo
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1817
Images: 194
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:11 am
Location: Columbia, SC
Top

Re: YAF (Yet Another Foamie) project?

Postby GPW » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:11 am

Now just thinking ... :roll: If Row can make a boat that he can lift on two fingers , it would seem you could make a roof that wouldn’t require any lifting mechanism ... which only adds more weight, complexity , and expense to the build ... :o Building a Foamie’ , not a Sherman Tank ...
Easiest thing to do is build the Minimum , as you can always easily add to it ... Foam being homogeneous , you can add/subtract at will... 8)
There’s no place like Foam !
User avatar
GPW
Gold Donating Member
 
Posts: 14911
Images: 546
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:58 pm
Location: New Orleans
Top

Re: YAF (Yet Another Foamie) project?

Postby TeriL » Thu May 01, 2014 1:00 am

by mezmo » 30 Apr 2014, 04:17
Hi Teri,

What is the 'nominal' size of the trailer's body ?
I don't think that's been mentioned yet. 5x10 ? 6x11 ? etc.
Knowing that would have a big effect on everyone's
comments.

Cheers,
Norm/mezmo




Hi Norm,

I guess I forgot to mention the size earlier. It's ~5x10. I say about, since I drew it with 62"x120" interior floor with a nominal 2" thick walls and ceiling. The 62" width was chosen initially since a queen size matress is supposed to be 60"x80" but some room to get your fingers between the walls and matress would be appreciated. I later decided a custom 3 part matress/sofa cushions whould have to be custom made. Probably not much more than some good upholstery fabric over foam.

The travel height (roof down) above the trailer platform is 48" and the camping height allows for at least 36" fore/aft headroom at 6'-6". I'm only 5'-6" but I wanted to accomodate taller guests and avoid a cave-like feeling. As I said in my initial post, I don't like the added height of the HF trailers due to their design. I'd probably make my own trailer for a lower deck and use torsion suspension for a smoother ride.

by GPW » 30 Apr 2014, 07:11
Now just thinking ... :roll: If Row can make a boat that he can lift on two fingers , it would seem you could make a roof that wouldn’t require any lifting mechanism ... which only adds more weight, complexity , and expense to the build ... :o Building a Foamie’ , not a Sherman Tank ...
Easiest thing to do is build the Minimum , as you can always easily add to it ... Foam being homogeneous , you can add/subtract at will... 8)


Glen,

I only mused about a lifting mechanism for the roof, a just in case it's heavier than I feel I can lift comfortably. I'm not fond of gas springs as they eventually go bad as the gas leaks out. Mechanical spring struts are a bit hard to find as the gas springs have taken over the market.

A foamie roof should be fairly light and probably easily lifted by "armstrong". As a former engineer, I'm still a bit OCD about contingencies. I prefer to plan ahead rather than just build and say "Oh Sh*T" when things don't go as hoped. Even so, SH*T Happens!

-- Teri
Our reach should exceed our grasp or what is a heaven for? -- Marshall McLuhan
User avatar
TeriL
Teardrop Advisor
 
Posts: 88
Images: 17
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: Central Texas
Top

Re: YAF (Yet Another Foamie) project?

Postby GPW » Thu May 01, 2014 4:56 am

T, then do the Math !! Foam’s LIGHT ... :D (as long as you leave out the 2X4 s ... ;) )
There’s no place like Foam !
User avatar
GPW
Gold Donating Member
 
Posts: 14911
Images: 546
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:58 pm
Location: New Orleans
Top

Re: YAF (Yet Another Foamie) project?

Postby KCStudly » Fri May 02, 2014 11:13 am

Since you asked for comments... I think the inward swinging door is a bad idea; requires too much interior space to be clear all of the time.

My suspicion is that you would regret it in the end. The beauty of 3D modeling is that you can make changes, even if it means designing yourself back out of the corner, even if it means undoing a lot of "stuff'. It may seem like you are so far into the design that you don't want to make such a major change, but if something as major as the door is a compromise, maybe it would be worth rethinking. :thinking:
KC
My Build: The Poet Creek Express Hybrid Foamie

Poet Creek Or Bust
Engineering the TLAR way - "That Looks About Right"
TnTTT ORIGINAL 200A LANTERN CLUB = "The 200A Gang"
Green Lantern Corpsmen
User avatar
KCStudly
Donating Member
 
Posts: 9610
Images: 8169
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:18 pm
Location: Southeastern CT, USA
Top

Re: YAF (Yet Another Foamie) project?

Postby TeriL » Sat May 03, 2014 1:08 am

by GPW » 30 Apr 2014, 07:11
Now just thinking ... :roll: If Row can make a boat that he can lift on two fingers , it would seem you could make a roof that wouldn’t require any lifting mechanism ... which only adds more weight, complexity , and expense to the build ... :o Building a Foamie’ , not a Sherman Tank ...
Easiest thing to do is build the Minimum , as you can always easily add to it ... Foam being homogeneous , you can add/subtract at will... 8)

and later:

by GPW » 01 May 2014, 04:56
T, then do the Math !! Foam’s LIGHT ... :D (as long as you leave out the 2X4 s ... ;) )


Hi Glen,

Well, I just did a few rough numbers since you implied I'm a worry monger.

It seems my roof design as drawn has a little more than 20 cu ft of foam. I read somewhere that the std XPS Styrofoam at the Borgs is about 2 lb/ cu ft. so that makes the roof weigh about 40+ lb from the foam alone. Add the canvas, wood inserts for hard points, windows, glue and paint. I think I saw a number someone had posted for the canvas and paint but I don't remember.

So, I'll take a SWAG that the roof would weigh ~ 60+ lb. Due to the hinged design, not all of that weight would be lifted at the back. A thumb in the wind guess, I'd say roughly 75% or ~ 45+ lb since most of the mass is toward the rear. For me, that would be a struggle. Add in the real life ergonomic considerations of trying to lift that weight from just above waist level to overhead+.

So, am I wrong to have spent a few minutes musing about lifting devices? 2 fingers indeed! Maybe for Arnold Alois Schwarzenegger (the Terminator) and others that speak with a heavy Austrian accent.

A good engineer never ASS_umes. Only bad engineers and others. :roll:

-- Teri
Our reach should exceed our grasp or what is a heaven for? -- Marshall McLuhan
User avatar
TeriL
Teardrop Advisor
 
Posts: 88
Images: 17
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: Central Texas
Top

Re: YAF (Yet Another Foamie) project?

Postby TeriL » Sat May 03, 2014 1:16 am

by KCStudly » 02 May 2014, 11:13
Since you asked for comments... I think the inward swinging door is a bad idea; requires too much interior space to be clear all of the time.

My suspicion is that you would regret it in the end. The beauty of 3D modeling is that you can make changes, even if it means designing yourself back out of the corner, even if it means undoing a lot of "stuff'. It may seem like you are so far into the design that you don't want to make such a major change, but if something as major as the door is a compromise, maybe it would be worth rethinking. :thinking:


Hi KC,

I thought long and hard about an in-swinging door. My major concern was it being jammed with something that shifted during transit. I figure a liberal use of cargo nets and bungees should minimize that problem.

As for keeping the swing area clear all the time, wouldn't having object there inhibits the use of the door anyway? Perhaps if they are low, you could step over them.

I'm still not totally committed on the in swinging door. An out swinging door would interfere with someone cooking. However, just asking them to move for a moment isn't a deal breaker either.

I was trying to figure out some sort of sliding door which would offer the best way out (pun intended). The sliding galley prevents that option unless it is completely removed when in use, this would present a different problem. Maybe I can figure out some clever mechanism to allow a sliding door. I'll think about this some more.

CAD is good at allowing you to figuratively wad up your design and throw it in the wastebasket. That's why I use CAD before making sawdust or metal chips.

Keep asking questions on my design. A good designer always should consider any design questions from others. It's too easy to design your self into a hole if you ignore any reasonable question.

-- Teri
Our reach should exceed our grasp or what is a heaven for? -- Marshall McLuhan
User avatar
TeriL
Teardrop Advisor
 
Posts: 88
Images: 17
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: Central Texas
Top

Re: YAF (Yet Another Foamie) project?

Postby GPW » Sat May 03, 2014 3:15 am

T, You’re right , you must engineer for You ... me, I’m a Gorilla , 60 # , no worries ... :o Sorry to interfere with your thought process... I ASSumed you were a big burly Texan . ... My bad !!! :beer:
There’s no place like Foam !
User avatar
GPW
Gold Donating Member
 
Posts: 14911
Images: 546
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:58 pm
Location: New Orleans
Top

PreviousNext

Return to Foamies

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests