Glidden Gripper vs PPG gripper

[Hamilton Felix]

Great! We picked up a third Five (really 4.92) at HD yesterday, just in case.

[tony.latham]

Great! We picked up a third Five (really 4.92) at HD yesterday, just in case.

What's a jug of that cost??? And how many gallons for a teardrop???


T

[joshuag]

I just picked up (3) 5-gallons at the HD in Northgate, WA and they were $112 each, so it came to $370 with tax. There was a sale when they made the transition and I think it was for 50% off....

I'm not sure how much is needed for a standard teardrop.

[zzzizxz]

I'm doing a Canvas to Foam Experiment for PPG Gripper Vs. Glidden Gripper.
I bought a gallon of PPG Gripper a month ago. I was told that it was the same thing just different label. After reading this thread, I bought a 5-gallon bucket of Glidden Gripper (the last bucket my Home Depot had in stock). I also have a one-year old can with a little Glidden Gripper left in it. So I decided to do an experiment to see if PPG can glue Canvas to Foam as well as Glidden. For a control factor in the experiment, I'm also using a little bit of Sherwin-Williams Primer and Paint that I happened to have laying around.

I'm using the same rules for this experiment as I used in the "Fixin to get ready" thread.
http://www.tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=70852



I put the canvas down yesterday and the paint should be completely dry by tomorrow morning. I'll post the end results tomorrow afternoon. In this experiment, just like the last one, whichever one is hardest to pull off the foam and pulls up the most foam with it, is the winner.

Awesome!!! Thank you Dave, for trying this for us!


Also, I bought a quart of "Zinssser Bondz" maximum adhesion primer.

It bills itself as having a "tenacious bond" to pretty much anything, including aluminum, tile, PVC and even glass. I picked it up at Menards, but I'm sure that you could get it almost anywhere. Zinsser products are pretty much everywhere. (Although I don't know about Canada, sorry!)




Even if it ends up being a little more expensive than PPG gripper, it sounds like it would work better for this application!

[tony.latham]

I just picked up (3) 5-gallons at the HD in Northgate, WA and they were $112 each, so it came to $370 with tax.

I'm beginning to wonder what the P in PMF really stands for.

That's more than I paid for epoxy and (real) fiberglass for this current teardrop.





Tony

[pchast]

I just picked up (3) 5-gallons at the HD in Northgate, WA and they were $112 each, so it came to $370 with tax. There was a sale when they made the transition and I think it was for 50% off....

I'm not sure how much is needed for a standard teardrop.

I did my 4X8 with about 3.5 gallons out of a 5 gallon pail. The price was just less than $100 back then.
It was used to bond my canvas, both inside and out, and for one primer coat on top of that.

[Hamilton Felix]

Good to know. We should be OK for two foamies, then.

Being a Hydroelectric Operator, and Dam Safety being part of my job, PMF means “Possible Maximum Flood” to me.

[joshuag]

I don't know how much I'll need so I got as much as I could. And I think my cousin wants one now

[GPW]

JMHO , while some may argue the benefits of other materials , After these many years seeing how well PMF holds up with Very little maintenance ( just cleaning ) , how easy it is to apply , and how easily it’s Patched … I can no longer think of using the Toxic and irritating Fiberglass … But that’s just me .
It’s all a matter of personal CHOICE , so use what YOU Like !!! Remember , personal TESTING of products is the only way to prove to Yourself what YOU like to work with …

[zzzizxz]

Tony, for me the big difference between the gripper (or other paints) and actual fiberglass is the potential learning curve. If you've had experience with fiberglass, and are comfortable with how to apply it, then paying more in material cost may not be worth it for you.

I've never worked with fiberglass or epoxy for any size project, so the idea of trying to learn on a camper was not something I wanted to even try.

On top of that, I'm not comfortable with the drawbacks of fiberglass as an amateur. I could be totally wrong on many, if not all of these, but they are,

1. Not UV stable. Have to do something to protect the glass/epoxy from the sun. Paint is inherently UV-safe
2. Epoxy has the danger of having too short a working time, or will not set up, ruining the whole project.
3. F.G. is more brittle, and prone to cracking under stress.
4. Glass and epoxy are much less forgiving to work with than paint and canvas.
5. More dangerous/toxic/hazardous to work with.

Again, since I have never personally worked with it, I'm sure that every one of my points can be refuted by someone who knows what they are doing. Personally, I WOULD make mistakes though, and I don't need the hassle on my trailer.

[tony.latham]

...for me the big difference between the gripper (or other paints) and actual fiberglass is the potential learning curve.

Isn't that true of both PMF and fiberglass?

1. Not UV stable. Have to do something to protect the glass/epoxy from the sun. Paint is inherently UV-safe
Both PMF and fiberglass need a UV covering.

2. Epoxy has the danger of having too short a working time, or will not set up, ruining the whole project.
Your exposing your misunderstanding of epoxy. Once the resin is on the surface you have a ton of time. Maybe an hour per batch. As far as not setting up, that's a mixing problem that is solved using pumps.

3. F.G. is more brittle, and prone to cracking under stress.
I'll argue that a layer of fiberglassed epoxy over wood will never crack. It's strong. Aviation strong. I think you're thinking about sprayed fiberglass/polyester layups done in molds.

4. Glass and epoxy are much less forgiving to work with than paint and canvas.
Glass issues are easy to fix with a sander.

5. More dangerous/toxic/hazardous to work with.

Here's the link to Glidden's MSDS. (Have you read this?):
https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/ab/ab0a96d4-5e52-4d64-bda3-a9b32b3caea8.pdf

And to Raka's epoxy:
http://www.raka.com/raka%20127%20900%20tabletop%20superfast.html

I've been using epoxy resin for layups for maybe thirty years. I find it safe to work with using normal precautions.

And for the record, I'm glad that everyone on here doesn't follow the same course. Diversity of builds is GREAT!



Tony

[Postal_Dave]

PPG Gripper Vs. Glidden Gripper Experiment Results.

To recap the findings from my last experiment, in the thread “Fixin’ to get ready”, the best steps I found for gluing canvas to foam are as follows.
1) Using Harbor Freight drop cloth canvas, be sure to wash and dry the canvas before using it because it will shrink.
2) Dry fit it and cut it with plenty of overhang. Then put aside for later.
3) Take 80 grit sandpaper and lightly sand the foam up and down, then side to side, to make small groves in it and to remove any coatings the manufacturer may have placed on the foam.
4) Wipe off, or blow it off with an air compressor, all dust from the foam.
5) Make small divots in the foam. I used a roller I made with staples sticking out, others use a wallpaper perforator. These divots will act as anchor spots on the foam for the canvas.
6) Wipe it off again, or blow it off with an air compressor, to make sure it is dust free.
7) Paint the foam with Gripper. Make sure all divots are filled with paint.
8 ) Let the paint dry completely. (At least 24 hours.)
9) Paint a thick coat of Gripper on the foam then place the canvas on the painted surface. Make sure the canvas is where you want it and press the canvas onto the paint. Use a scrapper to get out any bubbles. Let dry for at least 24 hours.
*Note* I have tried doing steps 7 and 9 in one step. My experiments showed that doing this in two steps gives better adhesion. *
*Note ** These are not all the steps you will need to finish your Poor Man’s Fiberglass (PMF). I’m only doing the basic steps to see how well PPG Gripper compares to Glidden Gripper for adhering canvas to foam. For complete instructions for PMF refer to the “Fixin to get ready” thread.



Results
First, I pulled off the Sherwin-Williams Canvas. It was was stuck to the foam nicely but it wasn't a hard pull. No foam came off with the canvas. (Black Paint, Upper Left)
Second, I pulled off the canvas from my one year old Glidden Gripper paint. It was very hard to pull off and it took a full layer of foam with it. (Upper Right)
Third, I pulled off the canvas from the fresh Glidden Gripper from my 5-gallon bucket from Home Depot. Same results as Old Glidden Gripper. (Lower Left)
Lastly, I pulled off the canvas from the PPG Gripper. It wasn't as hard to pull up as the Glidden but it was harder than the Sherwin Williams. It did take some foam with it but it wasn't as secure as Glidden.

Looking back at the "Fixin to get ready" thread experiment, IMO, PPG did about as well as straight TBII for holding Canvas to Foam.

[John61CT]

I'm confused.

Personally, the only test I care about at this point is original Glidden Gripper vs the new PPG Gripper.

And I would imagine proper full curing takes more than just a day or two?

At stake is whether or not my kids get less food and no travel this summer if I need to stockpile the real GG.

Obviously the longevity aspect will require waiting years for feedback. . .

[Postal_Dave]

*Disclaimer*
I am not a scientific expert. These are NOT laboratory conditions nor is this the final say. I'm just some guy on the internet doing my own experiments as fairly and as cheaply as I can so I can make the best build possible for myself. I'm just sharing MY experience with the forum. I make no assertion that this is the end all be all of factual truth. I can only take pictures and tell you what happened to me. If you disagree with my results or my methods or anything else...That's wonderful. Please do your own experiments. And Please share with the forum what you find.

The original post on this thread was someone asking if anyone had done any experiments. I happened to have already purchased a gallon of PPG and had some old Glidden. So I did an experiment. I'm sharing MY results. Your results may differ.

To clarify, I let the first coat of primer on the foam boards set for 30 hours. The second coat, when I applied the canvas, set for a little over 40 hours.

Look at the canvas swatch on the bottom right side of the picture. That is PPG Gripper. It did grab some foam with it and if allowed to set longer, it may have grabbed more. I don't know. I'm just showing what happened to me in my personal experiment.

As for whether or not I'd use PPG Gripper in a build. Considering that some people here used Glidden Gripper and TBII that was watered down to a 50/50 ratio to hold their canvas to their foam, and it's still going strong, I'd use full strength PPG Gripper for adhering canvas to foam. From my past experiments, the watered down glue and primer had very little hold. The full strength PPG Gripper held a lot better than anything watered down. Once again read the disclaimer above. This is just my opinion.

[John61CT]

Sorry if I seemed critical, and thanks for your efforts.

I literally did not understand the result for that specific comparison.

And no process critical to adhesion nor waterproofing should ever involve dilution.

Maybe for sizing purposes, other only-cosmetic stages.