Glidden Gripper vs PPG gripper

Canvas covered foamies (Thrifty Alternatives...)

Moderator: eaglesdare

Re: Glidden Gripper vs PPG gripper

Postby John61CT » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:19 am

The coatings specialists at AkzoNobel who created that specific formulation obviously came up with something very special.

Most noteworthy was the low cost to get that level of adhesion with such an incredible variety of substrates even in sub-optimal conditions.

Just looking for "primers" in the same general chemical classification will not obtain that same unique combination of attributes.

I doubt anything as good will be an inexpensive, general-purpose consumer-oriented product.
John61CT
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1958
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:36 pm

Re: Glidden Gripper vs PPG gripper

Postby RJ Howell » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:02 am

John61CT wrote:The coatings specialists at AkzoNobel who created that specific formulation obviously came up with something very special.

Most noteworthy was the low cost to get that level of adhesion with such an incredible variety of substrates even in sub-optimal conditions.

Just looking for "primers" in the same general chemical classification will not obtain that same unique combination of attributes.

I doubt anything as good will be an inexpensive, general-purpose consumer-oriented product.


We need some sort of basis to sample by. What are you offering as that basis John?
I agree just running at primers could very well be a waste of time, but..
With no other direction my course is : exterior use, water based, now stated acrylic and for some reason tinted (thinking the paint tinting may add what we want).

I liked the offering of the SW Pro-Crylic and have some samples of now drying. We shall see where it leads.
I'll post my results on the alternative thread.
RJ Howell
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1161
Images: 36
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:08 am

Re: Glidden Gripper vs PPG gripper

Postby theoldwizard1 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:04 am

John61CT wrote:Not as concerned about cost if it's very effective and long lasting, want to keep the foam as structure, do not want to work with fiberglass but some type of epoxy maybe.

Most epoxies do not like UV and require a top coat if they are exposed to sunlight.
theoldwizard1
Teardrop Inspector
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:02 am
Top

Re: Glidden Gripper vs PPG gripper

Postby John61CT » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:28 am

Yes, I do not consider UV resistance essential for the Gripper replacement, adhesion and waterproofing are the top two priorities.

The Aluthane metallic linear polyurethane coating I posted above is apparently impervious to UV, and may have a finish worth showing off, but

in general I thing most builders will want a nice looking topcoat in the color of their choice anyway.
John61CT
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1958
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:36 pm
Top

Re: Glidden Gripper vs PPG gripper

Postby John61CT » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:34 am

RJ Howell wrote:We need some sort of basis to sample by. What are you offering as that basis John?
I do not understand the question, please rephrase?

Obviously anyone can do any sort of testing on any primer they want, not at all trying to discourage that.

However for those with little understanding of coating chemistry, I want to point out that it is a complex science, and an approach informed with a bit more understanding will likely be more effecient.

And specifically, to clarify that just mixing different products together will likely be a longer path than seeking a single solution.
John61CT
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1958
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:36 pm
Top

Re: Glidden Gripper vs PPG gripper

Postby John61CT » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:50 am

theoldwizard1 wrote:Glidden Gripper was an acrylic primer. The PPG is latex. very different.

A quick Google search shows there are very few acrylic primer available. Sherwin Williams makes one call Pro-Crylic.
There actually is no distinction between latex and acrylic paints.

There is no latex in latex paints, that has simply become a general label for water-based paints, as opposed to solvent-based alkyds, aka "oil paints". That is the central distinction.

Within the water-based paints, there are different **ratios** of acrylic polymer resins vs vinyl (polyvinyl acetate).

Quality paints have higher proportions of acrylic, which of course is more expensive. Vinyl polymers are more porous, have lower tensile strength and scratch resistance and are much less durable.

Acrylic resins are also very resilient under stress, stay flexible over time, which is critical to this Foamie use case.

They are also used in some oil-based paints, hence the very common confusion.
John61CT
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1958
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:36 pm
Top

Re: Glidden Gripper vs PPG gripper

Postby John61CT » Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:18 pm

I'm thinking specialist industrial "coatings" rather than consumer/house "paints", at a minimum, intended for decks & porches.

"Bonding primer" for pressure-treated lumber

sealing concrete

marine paint for pilings & docks

protecting outdoor machinery. . .

Especially those touted to give good adhesion on old, perhaps contaminated and roughly prepped surfaces.

High solids content, "self-leveling" a plus.

Random googling:

Rust-Oleum Universal Acrylic Primer, also Concrete and Garage Floor Paint

http://benjaminmoore.pl/en/our-products ... a-110.html
https://jclicht.com/the-best-bonding-pr ... ic-primer/
(Acrylic Urethane)

McCormick’s FLOOR-TREK

Sherwin-Williams ArmorSeal Tread-Plex Water Based Acrylic Primer

KILZ 1-Part Epoxy Acrylic Concrete & Garage Floor Paint (vs Over Armor?)

https://www.armorgarage.com/heavy-duty-deck-paint.html

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Flo-X-Contr ... /309472088

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Sure-Step-1 ... /100672153

https://www.homedepot.com/p/BEHR-1-gal- ... /309026803

USSC DeFender "wb" concrete coating ?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ames-Super- ... /307904757
followed by
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ames-Paint- ... /307904858
John61CT
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1958
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:36 pm
Top

Re: Glidden Gripper vs PPG gripper

Postby ghcoe » Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:41 pm

You don't want to get too hard a coating because if anything hits it hard enough it can crack. Latex will bend with the impact and rebound back out with the foam.
George.

Gorrilla Glue, Great Stuff and Gripper. The three G's of foamie construction.

My build viewtopic.php?t=54099
Working with flashing for foamie construction viewtopic.php?f=55&t=60303
Making a hot wire http://tnttt.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=55323
User avatar
ghcoe
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1943
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:20 pm
Location: SW Idaho
Top

Re: Glidden Gripper vs PPG gripper

Postby RJ Howell » Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:00 pm

ghcoe wrote:You don't want to get too hard a coating because if anything hits it hard enough it can crack. Latex will bend with the impact and rebound back out with the foam.


I agree!

I do believe there is a acrylic primer out there that will do the trick. I like how TB2 stiffens the material, yet debate if I really want even that stiffness. I like the tests with the Pro Cryl from Sherwin Williams
https://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=SWPROTECT&doctype=PDS&lang=E&prodno=B66N310

I'd like someone else to test this product and show their thoughts.

I'm moving ahead with it. I like what I see.
RJ Howell
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1161
Images: 36
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:08 am
Top

Re: Glidden Gripper vs PPG gripper

Postby John61CT » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:04 pm

Remember, there is absolutely no, zero. nada. "latex" in modern paints, it's just a label for "water dispersion".

The high acrylic polymer content ratio is what gives greater elasticity **as well as** resilience / longevity, improving flexibility without using weakening plasticizers

as opposed to the (cheaper) vinyl acetate polymers, which are more porous and less durable.

"Gloss" additives increase the hardness of the outer finish, but certainly irrelevant for a primer, albeit possibly useful in a topcoat for scratch resistance.
John61CT
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1958
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:36 pm
Top

Re: Glidden Gripper vs PPG gripper

Postby fishboat » Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:42 am

About 75% of the recent discussion(last half dozen+ posts) is incorrect. No one should feel bad about that as the topic is complicated and convoluted and made no less so by by product descriptions and inconsistent terminology.

(I was in the business..as a product development chemist..designing styrene-acrylic polymer backbone structures..basically a performance need was identified and I'd design the polymer backbone that could meet those needs. That polymer backbone was then used in synthesizing emulsions that were formulated water-based coatings.)

Some reference reading..such as it is..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulsion_polymerization

Folks seems to be tripping over the word "latex" as in their head they're thinking "latex rubber". Years ago people shorten the term "latex rubber" into "latex". The world would have been better off if they shortened the term into "rubber". While the milk that is tapped from rubber trees is indeed an emulsion, as is cow's milk and TB2, for the purposes of this discussion..forget latex rubber as it doesn't apply to the line of products being considered(adhesive primers).

Any water-based paint, primer, or stain you buy is, at it's core, an emulsion. The words "emulsion" and "latex" can be used interchangeably. Neither of the words emulsion or latex suggest, or have any relation to, what chemistry(urethane, alkyd, acrylic, oil...) the emulsion/latex is comprised of. An emulsion/latex is just a physical state/conformation of some material.

Another wiki(it discusses two liquids..you can also have a liquid-solid emulsion..of specific interest in this discussion):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulsion

Acrylics, as a class of monomers, are inherently brittle materials. Among their many unique attributes, relative to other monomer-chemistries, are high gloss and superior exterior durability. They may, or may not, offer superior adhesion...it depends on how the polymer was designed/developed and what product requirements were being met in that development. Every base-chemistry (urethane, alkyd, acrylic, vinyl...) used in the coatings industry has attributes where they excel beyond the other chemistries. This leads to the need to select the right product/chemistry for your application.

Relative to this discussion, I'd avoid any material/coating based on PVA..poly(vinyl-acetate) as it's the cheap, garbage chemistry of the coatings industry.

For a topcoat (exterior durability), acrylics will be the best.

Urethanes are known for toughness and durability..and "ok" exterior durability...good enough, but not great.

The various chemistries are, as a rule(meaning there are exceptions), incompatible with each other. Incompatible meaning they can't be blended in the can nor topcoated..laying down a urethane base coat and topcoating with a waterbased acrylic will most often lead to a mess and flaking, non-adhering topcoat.

"Primers" are different class of products as they are designed to offer great adhesion to the substrate as well as subsequent topcoats...of possibly different chemistries. If you want a universal primer-sealer..use shellac. I has near-zero exterior durability, but almost nothing beats it as a conversion coating..sealing in any base-coat and offering great adhesion to near-any subsequent topcoat chemisty. In the above example..put down a urethane basecoat, spray it with shellac, then topcoat with acrylic..the acrylic will adhere well. In practice..there are better options for a trailer exposed to the elements.

In your search for an adhesive primer, look for coatings(product descriptions) that describe the attributes you want in a basecoat..like superior wetting and adhesion to various substrates as well as superior adhesion/compatibilty with various topcoat chemistries, and then select a topcoat for the attributes you need next, like exterior durability, color-fastness, adhesion.... Don't worry so much about superior exterior durability of a primer (beyond being designed for "exterior use") as the topcoat addresses this requirement much better than any primer ever will.

If you try to get all the attributes you want in one coating..you'll get a coating that does everything you need in a sub-par fashion...just how it works..
fishboat
Teardrop Master
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:47 pm
Top

Re: Glidden Gripper vs PPG gripper

Postby GPW » Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:47 am

Thanks Fish , that speaks volumes … :o :thumbsup: :applause:
There’s no place like Foam !
User avatar
GPW
Gold Donating Member
 
Posts: 14911
Images: 546
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:58 pm
Location: New Orleans
Top

Re: Glidden Gripper vs PPG gripper

Postby RJ Howell » Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:47 am

Fishboat, may I ask.. In your opinion does the Pro-Cryl Primer have the attributes we are looking for?

I have now found the SDS on it, yet don't know enough to understand..

Image

I posted SW's product sheet earlier.
RJ Howell
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1161
Images: 36
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:08 am
Top

Re: Glidden Gripper vs PPG gripper

Postby GPW » Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:57 am

Guys , one of the reasons we originally used T2 on Foamies was for it’s Non toxic properties … Primers that cause Cancer :o …. I don’t know if I want that on my trailer ??? :frightened: … Might as well get a FEMA trailer if we wanted to be poisoned …. Just saying …
:NC

All this high tech Science may be making a great primer , but where would we want to use it …. far away from us , eh …. ? Shellac is starting to sound better and better and as far as I know , Alcohol based primers won’t hurt the foam . We use alcohol to wipe the foam down to get the hand oils off … :thinking:
There’s no place like Foam !
User avatar
GPW
Gold Donating Member
 
Posts: 14911
Images: 546
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:58 pm
Location: New Orleans
Top

Re: Glidden Gripper vs PPG gripper

Postby Postal_Dave » Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:18 pm

Looking at Lowe's, I see Zinsser B-I-N and Zinsser Bulls-Eye Shellac. B-I-N is a Shellac Based Primer used for painting. Bulls-Eye is a Shellac and Alcohol mix for staining wood. Which one are we talking about using for a GG replacement?
Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
User avatar
Postal_Dave
Teardrop Master
 
Posts: 168
Images: 73
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:59 am
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Top

PreviousNext

Return to Foamies

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests