Would you bail out the auto industry?

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Would you bail out the auto industry?

Total votes : 93

Postby satch » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:14 pm

Would they bail me out if I was going under?
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Postby Walt M » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:27 pm

I knew this was a subject that needed to be addressed. politicians and big business and unions (unions are big business) will shove this down our throats. Just like the S&L loan scandle, NAFTA, AIG bailout, and again with the mortage bailout. Whenever you get Dems. and Republicans agreeing you know it's going to cost us money. Thomas Jefferson once said "no American is in such peril as when Congress is in session. chapter 11 is for reorganizing,Let the auto industry reorganize.
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Postby Gerdo » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:36 pm

I think that the big three need to take a look at themselves. Why does all of the GM based brands need to sell the same car? All three makers do it. It used to be if you want a basic car you bought Chevy. If you want a fancy car you would buy Cadilac. Now you cant't tell if it's a chev or a cady. Streamline.

My buisness isn't doing so well. Maybe they will bail me out.
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Postby S. Heisley » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:59 pm

I believe bailing out companies is bordering on socialism. So, if you bail out one company, do you bail out all failing companies? That could be federally irresponsible.

The reason so many American auto companies are in trouble is because they aren't making products that can compete with Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc. for the same quality and price. Chapter 11 Bankruptcy (financial regrouping) may be the best thing that the American auto makers could do because it would allow them to financially adjust their financial strategies and policies and reconsider products they are manufacturing. And, that might be done without actually closing their doors or laying off all the employees for any great length of time. Bankruptcy rules are much tougher than they used to be and much more governmental investigation is done, both immediate and ongoing, even after the bankruptcy is accepted. Therefore, the company wouldn't be getting away totally 'free'.

If a company can't be helped with Chapter 11 Bankruptcy, perhaps the government can help the people retrain, regroup and find new jobs or start new businesses. That's not a hand-out. It's a hand-up which could help not just the people but also the country by creating opportunity to develop new products and inventions that will help put our country back on top. A few years ago, a large group of employees bought their failing company and took it over. This could possibly happen again.

Our country was originally based on capitalism; but, I believe capitalism has gone awry because of corporate upper management greed and insensitivity to the market and the people. Anyone in upper management should earn his/her rewards. A law needs to be passed so that management can be allowed a modest salary plus a small percentage (or segment of a percent, depending on responsibility level) of any profits they are responsible for helping to create; but, not a carte blanche paycheck. However, if there are no profits, management should get only their modest salary. And, definitely, any president or CEO in charge of a company that goes bust should not be given a golden parachute. If you were in charge or owned a small company and it went belly-up, would you get a reward? I don't think so! In my opinion, golden parachutes are simply a legal form of theft.

And, that's my 50 cent opinion! (Aren't you sorry you asked?!) :lol:
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Postby asianflava » Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:12 am

S. Heisley wrote:Our country was originally based on capitalism; but, I believe capitalism has gone awry because of corporate upper management greed and insensitivity to the market and the people. Anyone in upper management should earn his/her rewards. A law needs to be passed so that management can be allowed a modest salary plus a small percentage (or segment of a percent, depending on responsibility level) of any profits they are responsible for helping to create; but, not a carte blanche paycheck.

+1 :thumbsup:

Upper management are the true corporate raiders. Even when the company I worked for was loosing money, we would hear about our CEO getting millions in bonuses. How can he justify a bonus when the company as a whole is loosing money. It wasn't just our company though, you hear about it all the time. Even if the ship is sinking, they have their golden parachutes that will take care of them. It is the board and stockholders that approved the package, they are made up of executives so they are looking out for each other.

As far as bailing out the big 3, I want to say yes if there was assurance that the upper management would no get any of it. There just isn't any way of checking that. Then I'd have to say no, let them reorganize.
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Postby Sonetpro » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:21 am

The problem is with the union also. The golden parachute is not only for managment it is for the workers also. They cannot be laid off as per the union contract. What a deal. Your job goes away and you still get paid.
We aren't bailing out the big 3. We are bailing out their pension and welfare fund. Does that mean they are going to bail out my 401K too.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/ ... 5068.shtml
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinside ... 351179.htm
A job for life even if you aren't needed is kind of hard to swallow and to expect the american taxpayers to pay for it is even harder to swallow.

I say let them file bankrupt and reorganize. We didn't bail out the Airlines, The Teamster trucking co's during deregulation, The dotcom co's when the bubble burst. Why should we bail them out. If it is mismanaged now and you give them money to stay afloat it would only be for a short while while the top exec's figure out away to put it in their pockets.
The bubble has burst you can't put it back together just gather up the pieces and make with it what you can.
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Postby chezrad » Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:13 am

I voted no, but I don't think it's going to matter. The side of the isle that wants to bail these folks out will soon be running the show. There may not be enough opposition to stop them. And if you think the voters opinion matters, just look what takes place in California every election with their propositions..Even if they pass overwhelmingly the court just overturns them.

This really plays along the lines of the famous quote, "If you kill one person your a murderer, if you kill millions your a conqueror." This is the same philosophy. Little companies go under every day but somehow we can't let big companies fall? Why not?

Another issue, ever notice how the Northern automakers (Union affiliated) need to be bailed out while the Southern textile industry was allowed to leave the country with little or no concern? We suffered horribly due to that over a decade and no one really cared or said much about it. I guess us Southern Redneck Bible thumping Republican leaning Gun Tooting Anti Union types can go "You know where"!

It's something to think about anyway. Cheers.
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Postby stbuch » Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:04 am

Does that mean they are going to bail out my 401K too.

After all this "crisis" is there anything left in my 401K? :cry:

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Postby kartvines » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:17 am

why bail out an industry that refuses to build what the people wants? There needs to be a shake up and they must be allowed to fail otherwise nothing will ever change.

Besides not many of us make $78 per hour doing a manual labor job the union has destroyed this industry.

How many of us now buy American? If they made something I could afford and rely on that would change.
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Postby asianflava » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:30 am

stbuch wrote:
Does that mean they are going to bail out my 401K too.

After all this "crisis" is there anything left in my 401K? :cry:


Last time I looked, there was a 35% drop, I don't even look anymore. No matter what fund you put your money into, it will still loose money. It's just a matter of loosing less money.
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Postby bobhenry » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:42 am

When I traded in my 2 dodge vans and my Dakota pickup and we downsized to a Scion Xb (35 mpg)and a Suzukie Esteem (45mpg) I felt like a traitor to America. I had refused forever to buy foreign but we as a family had to $urvive. With gas at $4.00 plus a gallon and each of us driving 60 miles a day it was a necessity. My Suzuki purchased used from a friend paid for itsself in gas savings in less than 12 months.

Gm had the EV1 and all the test vehicle families that were chosen to field test the vehicles as a leased car literally cryed when they were taken away and destroyed. Big oil won that round and GM had tossed away the key to their future. Do I want them bailed out NO will it happen YES. America can not survive with that many members of the work force thrust into unemployment.
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Postby Steve_Cox » Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:36 am

This crisis ISN'T the auto industry's fault -- it's the massive credit crisis that's keeping people from making large, financed purchases (like cars) and prevents the auto makers from borrowing any money to get past the slow economic times.

Detroit's had a rough 8 years -- but, the product line has evolved. The American consumer, for over a decade, demanded SUVs over all else. The D3 all produced record profits.

But almost instantaneously, consumer demand for large SUVs fell off, and American car manufacturers (by their own miscalculation) had terrible mid and small car lineups. They were punished. GM, Chrsyler and Ford have all laid off significant numbers of workers.

But they've completely redesigned their product lines and improved quality.

Ford and GM are both on the right path. But unless Washington realizes that the credit crisis -- and not mismanagement -- are driving this nail into the coffin, the D3 are finished. And so are 4 million jobs, about $160b in GDP, and billions in federal/state/local taxes.

Australia is one of the first countries to recognize the need to keep people working during this global financial meltdown and they are pumping money into their own auto industry.

We don't need 4 million more people added to the unemployment lines, and if the auto makers go under, there will be no pension or health benefits for the current retirees. Ya gotta be a really mean spirited SOB to want Americans and there families to starve because the greedy rich bastards were just a little too damn greedy.
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Postby Arne » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:32 pm

I voted no.

If the bailout is not done, it will create a lot of hardships. It will also get some reality back into the USA economy. The workers in the auto industry made huge gains in pay and benefits that priced them out of the market, and then all of a sudden, they had competition.

Now we have insurance companies who are in trouble buying a savings and loan bank to get in on the 850 BILLION dollar gravy train. It has to stop somewhere, it might as well be here and now.

A bit of advice. If you can't pay off you credit card at the end of the month, you can't afford to buy it.

I can't help any of that, but here are a few quotes from others that made me decide to vote no.


It's just amazing the average wage earner (tax payer) in the U.S. makes $28.00 / hour and is now being asked to bail-out the average auto worker who makes $ 78.00 / hour under current Union contracts. What's wrong with this picture ???

I think I told you about this a few weeks back, GM in Ontario was offering
employees $65K if they Retire at age 55 and a lot of the workers refused
saying $65K is NOT enough for a Pension. The guy being interviewed was
standing next to his new Mercedes.
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Postby Gary and Cheri » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:08 pm

I believe it was on the "Today" show yesterday.

They pointed out that if Ford were to go bankrupt, that would free them from the union contracts it had and allow them to be renegotiated. If I remember the numbers right Ford pays an average of $71.00 per hour in wages compared to Toyota which pays an average of $43.00 per hour. Hard to compete at that difference. If Ford got almost $30.00 per hour back from each of it's employees I suspect they would not be in trouble. It was suggested that this would be a better way for Ford to go in the long run.

They did not comment on GM or Chrysler.

I don't feel real sorry for the problems faced currently by the big three. I have always been interested in the best economy possible and when companies like Honda produce cars with high economy and the highest of crash rating in small cars with great reliability, that what I have been buying. Unfortunately the big three did not see the profit margin being to their liking in small cars and stuck with the large SUVs. Now they have to catch up to companies that were providing economy cars and it is costing them huge research dollars.

It seems that the Big Three have been relying upon their ad agencies to convince us that buying big SUVs was good for America. I would point out that both of my Honda powered cars were made in the U.S. by Americans.

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Postby bittmann » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:42 pm

My principal (I'm a teacher) said that he figured up how much the 70 billion would give to each household in America. It came out to $100,000 per household

70 billion or 700 billion? Pretty sure someone needs to point out to this principal that there are more than 7 million (or 700,000?) households in the US. At best, I think he's off by at least an order of magnitude.

Last time I looked at US census data, there were over 110 million occupied housing units in the US...that'd put the 700 billion number closer to $6400/household. I think.

(I'd still rather have the $6,400 myself)
Last edited by bittmann on Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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