Electrical Schematic

Anything electric, AC or DC

Electrical Schematic

Postby Dee Bee » Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:17 pm

Here is what I have designed as an electrical system for my TD

Image


Comments welcome...

DEE
Last edited by Dee Bee on Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Grace happens...
User avatar
Dee Bee
500 Club
 
Posts: 696
Images: 55
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:17 pm
Location: York, PA

Postby Endo » Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:55 am

Dee

I see you grounded the AC but not the DC to the frame. Is a separate DC ground needed? My converter has a positive terminal, negative terminal as well as a place to ground the converter to the frame. I don't know if this will ground my whole DC system or just the converter? Should the terminal bar have a ground to the frame?
Brad (aka Endo)
ImageImage Image
In God We Trust
User avatar
Endo
500 Club
 
Posts: 721
Images: 138
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:59 am
Location: Ohio

DC Ground to Frame?

Postby Dee Bee » Fri Apr 29, 2005 9:21 am

What is the best wisdom out there for DC systems? Should the negative terminal be connected to the trailer frame?

I don't have that included in my schematic above?

What do you think is best?

I will be adding an inline fuse on the positive main near the battery, however.

DEE
Grace happens...
User avatar
Dee Bee
500 Club
 
Posts: 696
Images: 55
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:17 pm
Location: York, PA
Top

Schematic Update

Postby Dee Bee » Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:16 am

Here is a new update of my electrical layout...
Image

Here is the larger version
http://www.nfdc.net/home/cbdb/HOLD.htm#Schematic%20Large

You can see I added the ground to frame for the DC system

This is how it all comes together in the TD...
Image

DEE
Last edited by Dee Bee on Sat Apr 30, 2005 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Grace happens...
User avatar
Dee Bee
500 Club
 
Posts: 696
Images: 55
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:17 pm
Location: York, PA
Top

Postby Woody » Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:09 am

Can you ground 120 vac and the 12vdc negative ground to the frame and share the "common ground" as it were without feeding back to either side? Can this be done? I thought they had to be isolated. Educate me
Woody
The Tear Jerker's, Florida Chapter Director
E-mail: tearjerkerfla@bellsouth.net
Tear jerker chapter site http://www.tearjerkers.net/forums/
Check the SE section for gathering information
Tear Jerkers new site http://www.tearjerkers.net/forums/
Enjoying life in 12 ounce increments is what it's about
User avatar
Woody
2000 Club
2000 Club
 
Posts: 2006
Images: 26
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:07 pm
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
Top

Help us Out Here... Educate me too

Postby Dee Bee » Sat Apr 30, 2005 6:02 am

Woody wrote:Can you ground 120 vac and the 12vdc negative ground to the frame and share the "common ground" as it were without feeding back to either side? Can this be done? I thought they had to be isolated. Educate me


Woody's question is mine too. Will my schematic work?

DEE
Grace happens...
User avatar
Dee Bee
500 Club
 
Posts: 696
Images: 55
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:17 pm
Location: York, PA
Top

Postby angib » Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:02 am

Why have the switch in the 12v negative line? I can see no reason why you need to isolate the battery negative terminal from the AC-DC converter negative.

Andrew
User avatar
angib
5000 Club
5000 Club
 
Posts: 5783
Images: 231
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:04 pm
Location: (Olde) England
Top

Postby Woody » Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:21 am

Actually the other questions, besides safety, I was more concerned about was how would the setup interact with a GFI installed. Since a GFI is looking for a short would the combining the two systems "grounds" would this function be defeated. Considering the 12 vdc negative side has technically electron flow make it sense a short, whereas, the ground of 120 vac does not with some exceptions. Does this make sense?.
Woody
The Tear Jerker's, Florida Chapter Director
E-mail: tearjerkerfla@bellsouth.net
Tear jerker chapter site http://www.tearjerkers.net/forums/
Check the SE section for gathering information
Tear Jerkers new site http://www.tearjerkers.net/forums/
Enjoying life in 12 ounce increments is what it's about
User avatar
Woody
2000 Club
2000 Club
 
Posts: 2006
Images: 26
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:07 pm
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
Top

Postby angib » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:01 am

Woody,

A GFI (assuming it's the same thing as our ELCB, Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker, which it looks as though it is) does not sense anything to do with the ground. All it does is compare what's flowing in the hot wire with what's flowing in the neutral wire and, if there's any difference, it trips. It doesn't mind where the difference is going, it just says if there's a difference, I trip.

So connecting the 120vac ground to the 12vdc negative will not affect the GFI.

On a separate note, who has actively grounded their aluminum skin? It would seem to me to be a much bigger risk that a wiring fault or chafing makes the skin live (do you guys say 'live' as well as 'hot'?), than the frame, and I wouldn't bet my life on the skin being electrically connected to the frame, unless I'd tested it first.

Andrew
User avatar
angib
5000 Club
5000 Club
 
Posts: 5783
Images: 231
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:04 pm
Location: (Olde) England
Top

Postby Woody » Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:34 am

So what your saying is, it would be safe to combine the grounds (120vac and 12 vdc) to a common ground (trailer frame) on a dual voltage system?. I am sorry I can't quite make the "connection" :lol: on how safe this is. On the bigger RV's are they wired that way with dual systems or is there some isolation from 12 vdc chassis ground and 120 vac ground?. Now looking at an inverter providing a ground on the outlet and mounted on a nonconductive surface or for that matter a conducvtive one. Does this mean that the inverter (120 vac side) is grounded through the 12 vdc wire (chassis ground) which would make it a common ground, but not an earth ground so it is grounded to what? That might answer your electrified aluminum skin theory, the earth ground is what? You reaching for the door knob while it is raining
Woody
The Tear Jerker's, Florida Chapter Director
E-mail: tearjerkerfla@bellsouth.net
Tear jerker chapter site http://www.tearjerkers.net/forums/
Check the SE section for gathering information
Tear Jerkers new site http://www.tearjerkers.net/forums/
Enjoying life in 12 ounce increments is what it's about
User avatar
Woody
2000 Club
2000 Club
 
Posts: 2006
Images: 26
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:07 pm
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
Top

Catastrophe Fuse

Postby Guy » Sat Apr 30, 2005 12:36 pm

What Andrew may be speaking about is a catatrophe fuse . Please check out Rvsolarelectric.com for more info.

Image
Regards,

Guy
Keep on living, laughing, learning and loving.
Image
User avatar
Guy
1000 Club
1000 Club
 
Posts: 1521
Images: 44
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:53 pm
Top

Postby mexican tear » Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:53 pm

I have the frame tied to the green wireof the 120VAC. The white wire (neutral) also goes to ground. I was getting shocked until I tied the earth wire (green) to the frame.

The 12V has to be grounded to the frame for the trailer lights to work.

I have/have owened many big trailers ant they are all set up this way.

I had a problem with my "pig tail" and it was shocking folks. Now if the plug in place is wrong, it will just pop the circuit breaker and not shock you.

kai
"Essie" and the Mexican Tear
Image
User avatar
mexican tear
Donating Member
 
Posts: 501
Images: 14
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 12:31 pm
Location: Tecolutla, Veracruz, Mexico
Top

Postby Woody » Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:02 pm

So according to the diagram you posted, they are isolated, 12 vdc chassis ground from the batteries is not tied to the 120 vac ground (green wire) they are separate systems. One using the standard 12 vdc chassis ground, were as, the 120 vac side uses the ground through the three prong shorecord. The catrostrophic fuse looks to be fuse to protect the 12 vdc side from a dead short within the 12 vdc system
Woody
The Tear Jerker's, Florida Chapter Director
E-mail: tearjerkerfla@bellsouth.net
Tear jerker chapter site http://www.tearjerkers.net/forums/
Check the SE section for gathering information
Tear Jerkers new site http://www.tearjerkers.net/forums/
Enjoying life in 12 ounce increments is what it's about
User avatar
Woody
2000 Club
2000 Club
 
Posts: 2006
Images: 26
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:07 pm
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
Top

What about that white wire to frame connection ????

Postby Dee Bee » Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:20 pm

mexican tear wrote:I have the frame tied to the green wireof the 120VAC. The white wire (neutral) also goes to ground. I was getting shocked until I tied the earth wire (green) to the frame. kai


Wow I never heard of a frame connection for the white wire of the AC system. Black is the hot or line wire, white is the wire that completes the AC circuit. In my way of thinking
1) bringing the white to the frame makes the frame part of the AC circuit.
2)No wonder people were getting shocked.... the frame was energized by the white wire.
3) Bringing the green wire to the frame carried the frame current to earth ground. But I think the frame is still energized.

I am no electrrician but I can't make sense out of white-to-frame connection.

Just MHO.

DEE
Grace happens...
User avatar
Dee Bee
500 Club
 
Posts: 696
Images: 55
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 9:17 pm
Location: York, PA
Top

Postby mexican tear » Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:27 pm

The only place they are tied together (green and white) is in the breaker box. Most household breaker boxes are set up that way. If you take an ohm meter between the green and the white. It will read 0. That is the only way they are tied together.

If the frame is not grounded (green) and you reverse the hot and neutral in your cord or the campground has it reversed then it can be a shocking experience. As it was in my case.

Today I had the power hooked up from the house and the truck hooked up at the same time to check everything out. All works well

Sorry if I confused anyone.

kai
"Essie" and the Mexican Tear
Image
User avatar
mexican tear
Donating Member
 
Posts: 501
Images: 14
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 12:31 pm
Location: Tecolutla, Veracruz, Mexico
Top

Next

Return to Electrical Secrets

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: lukesaysrelax and 0 guests