Piano Hinge vs Tee Molding Problem

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Piano Hinge vs Tee Molding Problem

Postby halfdome, Danny » Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:05 pm

I have tried to send a couple PM's and they sit in my out box so I'm posting this question. Hello Angib, I’ve noticed from your posts you are knowledgeable in the engineering field. I was wondering if you could figure out what the pivot point/hinge size would be needed to clear the tee molding that overhangs on the hinge side of my doors. Currently I have a 2" continuous/piano hinge and it won’t allow the door to open. I could just guess a 3" hinge would work and that could be the wrong choice. I don’t want to do a surface mount for appearance and security issues. Thanks for your time, Danny . If anyone else has an idea it would be greately appreciated.
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Postby Ken A Hood » Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:35 pm

The PM's sit there till the other person opens them....I guess it's so you know when they've opened them..
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Postby Nitetimes » Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:20 pm

The problem I see is that you can't have the molding extend beyond the centerline of the hinge. I don't think it would help much to use a deeper hinge because it still has a radius swing which will bring your molding in contact with the wall before the arc is complete. Of course i could be mistaken...it has happened.... once I think. :thinking: :thinking:

Now if you had a 3" hinge that was bent at a 90 at the wall edge so the pivot point extended forward to the molding edge it would work but I thing it would make the hinge a little flimsy
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Re: Piano Hinge vs Tee Molding Problem

Postby Gage » Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:03 pm

I've been waiting for that question to come up. Well a standard piano hinge won't work the way you want to install it without trimming some of the 'T' molding. Or you could locate the hinge outward at least the dim. of one leg of the T so when you open the door, it will clear. But then the hinge is sticking out at least 1/2 inch. And you will now have interferance at the latch side of the door and will need to do some tricky trimming of the door to correct that interferance.

So then what you may have to do to get the effect that you are looking for is to trim the 'T' molding at the two corners, so as to carry the straight edge of the door at the hinged side. That's the way I would do it. Sorry but my door doesn't have rounded corners at the hinge.

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Postby angib » Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:46 pm

Dang, I spent an hour working on the answer to Danny's PM to me and then I've just found that you guys have already discussed it all!

And, Danny, my PM back to you has been sitting there for an hour, so I think you've gone away to build your teardrop.

So I'll post my diagrams here. Each one shows a cross section through the hinge and through the T-moulding just below the hinge, in closed and open positions.

Danny's problem is that the 2" hinge makes one flange of the T-moulding hit the body side as the door is opened:

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Using a 3" hinge (or any other size) doesn't make the problem go away:

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Nitetimes cranked hinge suggestion works, though I hadn't thought about it being weaker:

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Gage's suggestion about cutting off the forward flange will work (actually not quite all the flange has to get cut off) but there is then a sealing problem. But where the flange has to be cut away, the seal can be switched to inside the door jamb, as the door closes mostly backwards and forwards this near the hinge.

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The part of the flange to be cut away is:

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I hope you all think I've really worked this subject to death. 'Least thems of you as is still awake......

Andrew :SG
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Postby mikeschn » Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:08 pm

Andrew,

Even if no one else appreciates it, I do. First of all you made it very clear as to what the problem was... your illustrations are perfect...

Second of all, I know what goes into drafting and design, and even engineering.

So thanks again for your efforts!

Mike...
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Postby halfdome, Danny » Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:38 pm

Thanks guys, The wife wanted to go out for lunch and shopping.

Nighttimes, I like your idea and it could be face screwed for more strength but it would need a very steep bevel on the latch side like Gage suggested.

Gage, I've seen the Camp Inn & Li’l Bear with rounded corners at the hinge and decided to do the same for comfort getting in and out and I also like the look. I have the Li’l Bear profile. You are correct in that the tee molding needs trimming. I had done some tracing on the top radius trying to work it out.

Andrew, I knew I could count on your expertise on recognizing my dilemma and working out the problem, excellent computer drawings they really helped. It's funny once I opened my mouth and ask a question later it dawns on me the size of the hinge is not the solution. Unless someone comes up with a better solution I'll trim away some of the tee molding like you and Gage suggested. :applause:

My aneling & bending the 4"radius has been a challenge to say the least. I’m going to use mapp gas with a rosebud tip on the next try since propane won’t even melt this stuff.
Thanks again, Danny
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Postby Gage » Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:56 pm

Darn Andrew, you and I work good together when I'm not fooling around. I haven't got a CAD program on my computer. No way did I want one because of what I did for a living. But now that I've been retired for 10+ years maybe it would be nice if only for the fun (and to see if I can still do it).

Hey
halfdome You also might check with Grant to see how he did it. I'm sure he'll help you out on that.

Have a good day.

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Postby angib » Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:14 pm

Gage wrote:You also might check with Grant to see how he did it. I'm sure he'll help you out on that.

Grant's cranked hinge seems to be made to order, so he could probably make a hinge to suit this job with both cranks facing the same way. As long as the fixed, body half of the hinge were screwed to the body on both its legs, I think the strength would be OK. But of course there's the delay and the cost.

Gage, get one of the free CAD programs and try playing around with it - but it can be addictive and then you have to work out how to stop......

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Postby halfdome, Danny » Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:15 pm

Gage, Grant said his hinges are for 3/4" walls & doors and mine are 1 5/8" thick. Thanks, Danny
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Postby Ken A Hood » Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:22 pm

halfdome wrote:Gage, Grant said his hinges are for 3/4" walls & doors and mine are 1 5/8" thick. Thanks, Danny


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Postby Gage » Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:30 pm

halfdome wrote:Gage, Grant said his hinges are for 3/4" walls & doors and mine are 1 5/8" thick. Thanks, Danny

You misunderstood. What I meant was with his rounded corners at the hinge edge, what did he do to prevent interference with the 'T' molding to the sides?

Have a good day.

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Postby grant whipp » Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:40 am

Gage wrote:
halfdome wrote:Gage, Grant said his hinges are for 3/4" walls & doors and mine are 1 5/8" thick. Thanks, Danny

You misunderstood. What I meant was with his rounded corners at the hinge edge, what did he do to prevent interference with the 'T' molding to the sides?

Have a good day.

8)



The doors that I have used with the radii on the hinge side were manufactured, pre-hung, RV-type doors or highly modified radius-corner baggage door units. The only time I ever built a door that was trimmed with T-molding all 'round the perimeter was on a Scad-a-bout many many years ago and the hinges were factory-style outside surface mount that had the hinge-pin on the outside edge of the T-molding.

Andrew's version of a "cranked hinge" (dang, Andrew, I sure do LIKE that term ... ;-} ;-} ...!) is an excellent solution, except for the fact that it will offset the door even further to the outsde of the body, requiring that you use a thicker weather seal / door seal. You can hide some of that with drip molding (and I DO highly suggest runnng the drip molding down in front of the hinge!). Shimming the inside door latches to catch the door frame or adding a striker plate will solve the latch alignment problem.

One last problem you need to consider with these custom-formed hinges is the thickness of the flat-stock that you start with, and the overall open width of the hinge before forming. I start with a hinge that is 4" open and .060" thick. If you can find a wider hinge to start with, it will almost certainly be .090" or better, meaning you'll need even more clearance between door and body down the hinge side. That extra thickness MIGHT be offset by the fact that you can now use countersunk screws to attach the hinge instead of panheads (that create their own clearance problems - when mounted as Andrew has shown), but then you have the extra time and effort to countersink each screw hole.

Just some thoughts to consider ...

Good Luck, Danny! In the meantime ...

CHEERS!

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Postby Nitetimes » Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:03 am

Another thought comes to mind while reading Grants post. If you can find someone to bend the hinge they will most likely have a shear available (the 2 tend to go together). When you have them bend the one ear in for the door have them shear the other side down to fit just into the corner of the 90, then redrill it to screw to the outside of the wall. The screws would still be under the other ear so they will be inaccesable thereby preserving your security but eliminating the fitment problem with the thinkness of the heavy hinge.
Make sense to anyone but me? :thinking: :thinking: :thinking:
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Postby angib » Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:30 am

Nitetimes wrote:Make sense to anyone but me?

Yup, I was just thinking the same thing as I read your post:

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