Laminated SIPs?

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Laminated SIPs?

Postby mikeschn » Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:45 pm

Laminated SIPs...

I've been thinking about these lately... especially when you look at what Boulter Plywood wants for one of these... between $115 and $190...

Image

So if I wanted to make one of these with luan and EPS, what adhesive would I use?

Mike...

P.S. Just to make things more difficult, I'd rather not blow up the house with a combustible adhesive...
Last edited by mikeschn on Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby asianflava » Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:51 pm

I vote for epoxy. Maybe that is what they use, which is why it costs so much. Just guessin' tho.
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Re: Laminated SIPs?

Postby angib » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:05 pm

mikeschn wrote:Laminated SIPs...

I've been thinking about these lately... especially when you look at what Boulter Plywood wants for one of these... between $115 and $190...

Probably what it would cost you to make one yourself - if you bought the same structural grade of foam - it is not cheap.

You aren't going to subject your side walls to the same bending load, so I'd guess EPS would do OK - not as strong, but strong enough.

What's wrong with combustible adhesives? Remember the correct application method (Spread, spread, sniff. Spread, spread, sniff.), and you'll have a great time, man......

I thought you Merkans could get water-based contact adhesives?

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Postby mikeschn » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:11 pm

I used a contact cement when I built my tiny Benroy... I happened to lay the aluminum on a sheet of beadboard insulation to apply the contact cement. Every place the contact cement touched the insulation, it melted...

Would contact cement melt EPS? How about this stuff?
http://www.dap.com/product_details.aspx?product_id=37

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Postby Ma3tt » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:18 pm

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Postby Chip » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:20 pm

Mike,, EPS comes in two flavors,, expanded polystyrene and extruded polystyrene,, both are effected by any solvent based adhesive,, it will melt it down to next to nothing,,, even something like Liquid nails will melt the insulation,,, so if you are gonna use EPS, its just about got to be a water or latex based adhesive,,,

Now Isocyanurate is another story,,, looks sort of like eps but different,, Mike the picture you have even looks like Iso rather than eps,, anyway,, iso can be laminated with solvent based glues,, it comes in a bunch of different thickness from 1" up to 4" thick , with 1, 1.5,2,2.5 and 3" being the more common sizes stocked by distributors,, Roofing wholesalers are a great place to pick up a few sheets,, Iso comes with a fiberglass reinforced facer laminated on both sides which cuts down on the insul getting damaged and a good surface to glue to,,

R-Values are about the best of conventional materials,, with an inch and a half being approx R-8,(aged R-value) compared to 4.17 per inch for expanded and 5 for extruded polystyrene,,

damn,, something I finally know something about rather than just pickle juice,,,, I need a drank


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Postby mikeschn » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:22 pm

Ma3tt wrote:http://www.thistothat.com/


Thanks Matt...

I saw the polyurethane glue suggestion on the web eariler today... I'm just trying to figure out which is better....

Polyurethane glue (Gorilla glue)
Water based contact cement
or
Epoxy resin

And as a side question, would Titebond III work? maybe Chris C knows the answer to that one...

Mike...
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Postby Micro469 » Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:24 pm

Mike... check this website. A product called Corecell
http://www.spsystems.com/solutions/corecell.htm
Might be what your looking for...
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Postby Ken A Hood » Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:30 pm

That's a REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY big pic......takes up my whole screen, and half of another :x
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SIPS for trailers

Postby captainsam » Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:38 pm

I know I'm a newbie here but I've been looking into SIPs (Structural Insulated Panels) for a while. I found a web forum that has a lot of info including a thread on building these at home. Most of the users are interested in house construction, but much of the info would apply to a trailer wall.

see:

http://www.sipweb.com/forum/topic.asp?T ... e=SIP+Talk

I was interested in building a cold weather trailer for winter use. These panels are high R and light weight. There are two types.

The first is a glued system where the wood or other material is bonded to a sheet of foam. This sounds easy but the pressure required is immense. It takes at least 5 psi to get a good bond line so big hydraulic presses are used. A 4 X 8 panel is 4608 sq. in. so you need over 11.5 Tons of force to press the panels.

Of course another way is to vacuum bag the panel. Just suck the air mostly out of the bag and you have most of the 14.7 psi atmospheric pressure doing the pushing. Still it take a big vacuum bag and a pretty strong pump (although a strong shop vac gets about 3psi suction).

I know a guy in Alaska building panels this way with epoxy and using cement blocks to apply pressure.... a fraction of the advertised required pressure. He says it's working so maybe the pressure is not as critical if you use the expensive epoxy instead of the polyurethane cements. I only have his account and no first hand knowledge but he is building a pick up camper this way.

The second type of sip is the polyurethane sip where foam is injected between two panels and expands to fill the void. The polyurethane bonds directly to the panels. These have slightly better r-value. This usually take a very expensive machine to spray the hot foam and maintain the dimensional stability of the panels.

All these panels use 3/4" OSB so they are too heavy for trailer applications.

I have experimented with home building these type panels but by using two part pour polyurethane foam. This is the foam the pour into boat hulls for flotation. The two liquids when mixed expand to about 20-30 times the initial volume.

I first built a frame to hold two 12" X 12" sheets of 5.2 luan. Aligned vertically I poured the foam down into the cavity and allowed it to expand to fill the space. I made it about 2 1/2 inches thick ( R-15). The results were good but since I had nothing holding the faces of the panels the pressure of the foam did push the center of the panel faces out slightly… perhaps 1/8” I'm not sure how much force would be neede to hold the shape but it doesn't see like that much. . The working time on the foam once the two parts are mixed is about 60 seconds so you have to work fast. The form sticks perfectly to other foam so you can pour the cavity in several lifts so the pressure is less.
The completed panel weighed about 2 pounds per square foot. The expanded foam weighs 2-3 lbs. Per Cu. Ft.

I next built a 2 X 2 panels three inches thick. I basically built the walls on a frame and poured foam into the cavity between the “studs”.

The results of all panels so far are good. I cannot pull the luan off the foam without breaking the wood.

My next step is to build a 4 X 8 test panel.

The two part foam is pretty expensive but a good source is:

http://www.jgreer.com/Foam%20Page.htm

80 cu. Ft. ( 5 gals each part A and B) is $ 260

I think it may be possible to get a professional panel Mfg. make to special make some 2" luan faced panels if we could get a large enough run...but thats just a guess. They may not be interested and it would be pricey. In the spirit of this group, it would be fun to DIY somehow.

I need to sucessully build a 4 X 8 panel before I can commit to this technology as I and doing it "homebrew". I would like to build a few panels and the destructive test them.

If the pour foam doesn't work I will try the baging technique.

I am out flying but if anyone is interested I could post some pictures of my small test panels when I get home Friday.

Sorry this is so long.

Sam
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Laminated SIP's

Postby rooster » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:14 pm

Ok. I read the thread and found out what SIP stood for, what is CPS? It would be nice when someone writes a new post they would tell what the letters mean. Then everyone will know what is being talked about.

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Postby madjack » Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:29 am

Cap'n, yes indeed we wanna see some pics and thanks for the info...this subject has been discussed before but hasn't really gone anywhere...I am sure there are others here who are as interested as I am to here your results :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Postby mikeschn » Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:13 am

Ken A Hood wrote:That's a REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY big pic......takes up my whole screen, and half of another :x


Ken,

You need a bigger monitor! :lol:

I had linked to boulter's picture... I didn't realize it was soooooo big. I've just swiped it and resized it. Should be better now!

Mike...
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Re: Laminated SIP's

Postby mikeschn » Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:36 am

rooster wrote:Ok. I read the thread and found out what SIP stood for, what is CPS? It would be nice when someone writes a new post they would tell what the letters mean. Then everyone will know what is being talked about.


Jim,

I assume you mean EPS, that's Extruded Polystyrene Insulation, also known as Foamular. That's the pink insulation sheets you can get at Home Depot, etc...

Mike...
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Postby angib » Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:24 am

Micro469 wrote:Mike... check this website. A product called Corecell
http://www.spsystems.com/solutions/corecell.htm
Might be what your looking for...

This is exactly the sort of stuff that I meant by 'structural foam'. Corecell is my favourite high-strength foam - it's ability to withstand abuse without failure is stunning.

But, so we're clear about it, the trade price for 4x8 sheet of 3/4 Corecell will be around $150 in volume and probably double that for one or two sheets retail. Puts Mike's ready-made SIP prices into perspective!

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